I'm lost in Mahler/Brucker's music.

[max]

...so am I and I LOVE IT!

[Bonehelm]

Wow you guys give in-depth and constructive comments. It's great I can get this much help from a community I'm relatively new to. 

For those who want to know, I was listening to Mahler's resurrection symphony with Claudio Abbado conducting the Lucerne Festival Orchestra. Any comments on that combo?

Again, thanks for all your input. Looking forward to learn more from you guys.

[Steve]

Wow you guys give in-depth and constructive comments. It's great I can get this much help from a community I'm relatively new to. 

For those who want to know, I was listening to Mahler's resurrection symphony with Claudio Abbado conducting the Lucerne Festival Orchestra. Any comments on that combo?

Again, thanks for all your input. Looking forward to learn more from you guys.

Hey, bonehelm. 

You generally cannot go wrong as reference the likes of Abbado/Tennstedt/Szell/Bernstein, so you're in for a treat with the Abbado. Of course, we can only provide reviews based on your reactions to the experiences you're having with Mahler. If this is to you're liking, I would reccomend his more than excellent recordings with the LSO on DG. If you fancy the conducting, you'll certainly enjoy these others. I would reccomend taking on the 7th with Abbado/LSO.

If not, you might want to visit Berstein. Happy travels. 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Similar experience here, only it took me less time for Mahler, even longer for Bruckner (whom I still don't consider to be nearly in the same class!)!

Believe me, Bruckner can easily stand shoulder to shoulder with any composer, be it Mahler or whomever...

Would I lie to you?

[mahlertitan]

Believe me, Bruckner can easily stand shoulder to shoulder with any composer, be it Mahler or whomever...

Would I lie to you?

that's probably true.

[Greta]

Hi Bonehelm! I'm glad you're up for trying Mahler and Bruckner so quickly, it took me 10 years to get around to it.

I've been focusing on Mahler this spring, but look forward to taking on Bruckner this summer. Both of them wrote very LONG symphonies, so that in itself can make them trying, I started with Mahler by listening to one or two movements at a time, sometimes more than once through and this seemed to help a lot. One symphony all at once was just overload!

It might help to start with his all-symphonic symphonies, as the voice just adds another layer to think about. I started with the 5th and 7th, both colorful and enjoyable, and the 5th has a somewhat more comprehensible form. The slow Adagietto is gorgeous and very accessible. The 4th is also very immediately likeable.

Actually the first symphony of Mahler's I sat down and heard all the way through was the 7th on the radio, I didn't have a clue what composer it was, and my reaction was so much like yours I laughed out loud at reading it! It was like deja-vu of my thoughts during my first listening of the 7th.  But I enjoyed the confusion immensely, I found it really exciting to listen to because I never knew what he'd throw at me next.

Every time you think he's done, he teases you and jaunts away with another idea, which is something I have come to appreciate. One thing that helped me is to read about his symphonies, he created programs for many of them (even though he later rejected them) and this can give you some clue as to what he was trying to communicate.

Here's a great resource:

Gustav Mahler page at Andante

Definitely the 2nd is IMO rather dense and overwhelming, I've been listening to it a lot lately, and I can hardly think of a work that is quite so emotionally powerful, it's very deep. Do you have the libretto? It takes a few tries but following along with the words as they are sung really brings it home. Such a truly awe-inspiring work.

Anyway, good luck, we're here and glad to help, you've touched on two of the most dense, and thrilling, composers out there, and we were all once in your shoes!

[Steve]

Believe me, Bruckner can easily stand shoulder to shoulder with any composer, be it Mahler or whomever...

Would I lie to you?

I hope to one day reach that point with Bruckner. 

[Heather Harrison]

It took me some time to really "get" Mahler.  While I found his music enjoyable and interesting the first time I heard it (Symphony No. 1), I didn't appreciate the deeper meanings and the structure of the works.  It took some time to get to that, and once I got there, I appreciated his music even more.  I would agree with others who suggest Nos. 1 and 4; they are perhaps the easiest to understand.  Also, the earlier song cycles might be good choices.

Bruckner has always been just beyond the horizon for me; I haven't collected all of his symphonies yet, and most of what I have is on LPs that I bought years ago and listened to a few times - just enough to make me curious.  My impression is that, if I put the kind of effort into understanding his music that I have into Mahler's, my efforts are likely to be greatly rewarded.  However, I won't find out until I really jump in and listen closely and repeatedly.  It is probably about time for me to shift my attention to Bruckner; I have been taking note of reviews and discussions here, and I have been eyeing CDs in the stores.  Before long, I am sure I will be posting short reviews of Bruckner CDs in the "purchases today" thread.

This is the sort of music that might be enjoyable to listen to at first hearing, but to gain a deeper understanding takes a lot of time and patience.  For me, it has been worth the effort in the case of Mahler, and I will be surprised if Bruckner's music doesn't also reward this kind of effort.

Heather

[mahlertitan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/audioarchive.shtml

this website should help to ease the Bruckner problem

[Bonehelm]

Wow MahlerTitan, are those free and full tracks? Thanks for the link!

[mahlertitan]

Wow MahlerTitan, are those free and full tracks? Thanks for the link!

you are mistaken my friend, it's better, they are commentaries, if you want to access to more classical music, give me a PM, i might give you some good insights.

[Bonehelm]

a thousand thanks to all of you!

[12tone.]

I have this cd of Chailly's Bruckner 8th:



After attempting yet another try at Bruckner's 1rst by Jochum from this set I still find his Bruckner boring:




So find a conductor that's good.  The only Bruckner symphony I have by Chailly is the one above and I really enjoy it.  I can make it through a Bruckner symphony!!!  Yaaaay!  The adagio is stunning and the two sections -- the "harp melody" and the "horn melody", both of which have variations; harp has 3[?] and the horn has 2 -- are just amazing and really 'make' the symphony for me.

The layout as it were of the symphony is indeed not 'classical' but should be seen as something different.  I see in the second movement big blocks that go []__[]__[]__[] and so on.  You have this big orchestral section which plays this hefty, pounding tune that comes and goes throughout the movement.  The movement both starts with it and ends with it.  And, correct me if I'm wrong but it's actually repeated for the ending (they play it twice).

I might try Chailly's other recordings too.  I bought this too recently:

I don't care for it.  It's a great recording but I just don't 'get' it like I do the eighth.


Oh one thing else.  If you like Wagner, try and listen to how much Wagnerish the Bruckner's 8th sounds.  I wish all of Bruckner's symphonies were this 'Austrian / German' sounding.  Big brass everywhere!
 

[max]

I also have the Bruckner 8th with Chailly and it is an excellent recording and on one disc too.

Bruckner is often regarded as some Wagnerian symphonist but I find their harmonic language very different. The only thing they have in common is the heavy brass and huge orchestra otherwise I think their mediums manifest very sounds and messages. Had Wagner been more serious about symphonies, I imagine it would have sounded very different from Bruckner.

[Holden]

Bonehelm - I had a similar problem initially with Mahler until I discovered his 4th which is very pastoral in nature and has some beautifully haunting tunes. This is where I suggest that you start with Mahler and if you get the Klemperer or the Szell you will be well served. See below for both.





The Klemperer is much better IMO.

Once you get the 4th then #1 is next

[Greta]

It is probably about time for me to shift my attention to Bruckner; I have been taking note of reviews and discussions here, and I have been eyeing CDs in the stores.  Before long, I am sure I will be posting short reviews of Bruckner CDs in the "purchases today" thread.

This is the sort of music that might be enjoyable to listen to at first hearing, but to gain a deeper understanding takes a lot of time and patience.  For me, it has been worth the effort in the case of Mahler, and I will be surprised if Bruckner's music doesn't also reward this kind of effort.

Heather

Heather,

It seems you and I have been almost on the same track this year.

-Greta

[quintett op.57]

Bruckner is often regarded as some Wagnerian symphonist but I find their harmonic language very different. The only thing they have in common is the heavy brass and huge orchestra otherwise I think their mediums manifest very sounds and messages. Had Wagner been more serious about symphonies, I imagine it would have sounded very different from Bruckner.

As someone said before, Bruckner's symphonies are not structured the same way than classical symphonies (one could see the trace Beethoven left at the beginning of the XIXth). But he way he uses the beginning of his themes several times and the way he developes them in many different ways show he is a heir of the first Vienna school.
The other great influence we can hear in his works is the Romanticism (not only Wagner, but also Berlioz, Liszt and, of course, Beethoven who carries both classical and romanticism).
Here is the CD I'd love to get if I had to get introduced to Bruckner's music.

Bonehelm, if you like chamber music, don't forget he's composed one of the most beautiful string quintet.

[Michel]

I am suprised you lump these together.

I do some sympathy if you feel that way with Mahler, even I do, too. Perhaps you could start with his songs? They contain the building blocks of some of the symphonies and will maybe help you understand what Mahler was hoping to do in his music.

Bruckner, on the other hand, I think is very accesible. He was one of the first composers I got into in a big way - start with his 7th, I would say.

[quintett op.57]

Bruckner, on the other hand, I think is very accesible. He was one of the first composers I got into in a big way - start with his 7th, I would say.

Maybe it's a good suggestion, but I don't agree at all  :

I maintain you should start with 6th.

Personally, it's Mahler I find very accessible.

[david johnson]

think 'longer phrases'.  that helped me some.

dj