Mahlerly Challenged

[max]

Sometimes it takes only a single movement or even part of a movement to cause a breakthrough into the sound world of a composer. In the case of Mahler, I would approach his symphonies with some of his beautiful and sublime slow movements especially that of the 4th, 5th and 6th symphonies. That of the 6th ends in what can only be described as an apotheosis worthy of any composer who ever lived.

Once the tension of mystery overwhelms indifference your ready for further exploration of the composer's Weltanschauung and Mahler definitely had one!

[Haffner]

Still have not learned to enjoy this composer's music.  I believe Hornteacher is also in this same boat....maybe others wallowing out there as well, but afraid to admit it.  We need your guidance in beginning to appreciate this composer's efforts.  Where do we start?  Facilitator positions now open.

Bill, the 4th Symphony is your best "beginning" ticket, in my opinion. From there, try to set aside a half hour out of your day to lay in a non-distracting room and give the 1st movement of the 9th an attentive listen. Try that approach with each movement of the 5th as well, and then attempt to tackle the much more complex stuff like the rest of the 9th and 8th.

With Mahler, it's more like his music "grows on you" in a very profound (ultimately deep) manner, rather than just "clicking" like the works of other compsosers.

[not edward]

I will look out for the 5th.  Without strarting a new thread, will Lenny do here?

I don't know about the Sony version, but I found his DG recording most acceptable. He doesn't quite make the finale work, but very few conductors do.

[Haffner]

Sometimes it takes only a single movement or even part of a movement to cause a breakthrough into the sound world of a composer. In the case of Mahler, I would approach his symphonies with some of his beautiful and sublime slow movements especially that of the 4th, 5th and 6th symphonies. That of the 6th ends in what can only be described as an apotheosis worthy of any composer who ever lived.

Once the tension of mystery overwhelms indifference your ready for further exploration of the composer's Weltanschauung and Mahler definitely had one!

This is an excellent idea!

[George]

Still have not learned to enjoy this composer's music.  I believe Hornteacher is also in this same boat....maybe others wallowing out there as well, but afraid to admit it.  We need your guidance in beginning to appreciate this composer's efforts.  Where do we start?  Facilitator positions now open.

1. Start with what you have. Sounds like you have a number of Mahler 1's, so that seems like as logical place to begin as any. This is how I approach any cycle of a composer's output, as I feel that I better understand and appreciate their work this way. Listening to Beethoven's 9th is a very different thing after getting to know 1-8.

2. Like others said, give the entire work your full attention at least the first few times listening to it. Just let is soak in, don't try to get it. I've found that Mahler is one of those composers who needs (and deserves) the audiences full attention.

3. If it doesn't grab you, try a recommended recording such as Kubelik on DG.   

4. Repeat #2.

5. Still not connecting? Move to Symphony 2 using the same process. If you really haven't connected by the first four symphonies, perhaps:
a. you don't like Mahler, or
b. it just isn't the right time.

[DavidW]

I'm going to suggest the opposite approach as to what has been suggested so far.  Divide and conquer.

Only concentrate on listening attentively, repeatedly to one movement, then repeat for the next movement... after you have the thematic narrative understood movement per movement, then you are ready to listen to the symphony as a whole.  Now you will not be trying to understand what's happening internal to each movement, but instead find the connections between the movements, decide for yourself if the symphony is cyclic or not.  And nevertheless, you can appreciate the symphony as a whole much easier that way.  The natural attention span of most people is less than the duration of an average Mahler symphony which is why I advocate divide and conquer.

Besides, in most works, including Mahler, the attempt at a cyclic work is usually superficial-- simply a theme repeated through movements.  To make up a statistic that I have no way of knowing is right or not -- 95% of the time you don't need to tackle each movement of a work in relation to the others.

[EmpNapoleon]

Michael Tilson Thomas conducting the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra sounds great.  That's why the cds are so expensive, but they can be stolen. 

They're the best sounding recordings I've heard.  What's with them? 

Another great sounding recording is the Philadelphia Orchestra conducted by Christoph Eschenbach (specifically the 6th symphony).  These cds are also gold on the back instead of silver.

What are some other clear sounding, golden cds?

[beclemund]

Michael Tilson Thomas conducting the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra sounds great.  That's why the cds are so expensive, but they can be stolen. 

They're the best sounding recordings I've heard.  What's with them? 

Another great sounding recording is the Philadelphia Orchestra conducted by Christoph Eschenbach (specifically the 6th symphony).  These cds are also gold on the back instead of silver.

What are some other clear sounding, golden cds?

What you're seeing with those CDs is that they are Super Audio CD rather than standard compact disks. Which is why the cost is high. Tilson Thomas and the SFSO can also be found on eMusic if you want to get their cycle for very low price. Granted, you'll get high quality variable bit-rate MP3 versus a nice, shiney SACD hybrid CD, but you'll also pay about a dollar a symphony rather than 20+.

As for appreciating Mahler, another poster in a similar thread from not long ago suggested an introduction to Mahler might be better served by engagement with his song cycles as there are thematic origins in them for his symphonies. I am not refined enough to uncover those particular nuances, but I do know that EMI's Great Recordings of the Century series has at least two fantastic collections of Mahler's lieder the first featuring Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau with Szell conducting and the other featuring Janet Baker with Barbirolli conducting. Both are wonderful to hear and might help expand your appreciation of the composer.

[EmpNapoleon]

Where can I find more Super Audio classical cds?

[beclemund]

Where can I find more Super Audio classical cds?

Both CD Universe and Amazon.com allow you to browse a list of SA-CDs and Hybrid SA-CDs (these have a normal CD layer that plays on standard CD players and another that plays on SACD Players)... and I'm sure the same is true of other online retail sites.

The Super Audio CD Reference at sa-cd.net is another good resource for SACD... There are other good resources as well for both SACD and DVD-Audio releases. A few Google searches will uncover handfuls. If you're looking to upgrade a component system, consider adding a SACD/DVD-A combo unit so you can take advantage of multiple formats (including standard audio CD).

[Mark]

Bill, the two Mahler symphonies to which I keep returning are his Fourth and Seventh. I like his First, but it doesn't grab me like these other two. I listened to them repeatedly for a while, and that constant familiarisation really helped me to grasp at least some of what was going on in Mahler's music. I recently had a breakthrough with his Fifth, too; and while it's not likely to become a firm favourite anytime soon, it did finally get through to me through this process of repeated listening. David's suggestion, incidentally, about taking each movement one at a time is what I did at first. It worked for me, so give it a try.

[Haffner]

I recently had a breakthrough with his Fifth, too

It will keep getting better, Mark, trust me 0:)!

[The Mad Hatter]

I think it's very important with Mahler (particularly with the late symphonies) that you have a good idea what was going on in his life at the time, because his works are always so incredibly personal that to take them without that can leave you a bit detached from the music.

Also, don't worry, his music is not easy: I think it's best to listen with a score handy, and just see how much he can do with tiny ideas, and to have a reference point.

I'll also throw in a vote for the fourth symphony as a starting point. It's almost classical.

[Heather Harrison]

The 3rd it is....possibly this weekend so I can give it my FULL attention.

If you decide to tackle the lengthy Third, you might find the programmatic aspects of it interesting; it is probably explained in the liner notes.  Also, there exists a DVD of a documentary about this symphony.  Although the symphony is quite long, it is one of Mahler's more accessible works; it even has a few catchy tunes that might stick in your head.



This is the sort of symphony that can inspire a documentary film; I can't think of many others like it.  If you find the Third interesting, I would recommend this DVD.  It does a good job of telling the story of this symphony.

Heather

[Greta]

The 5th, 2nd, and 3rd are my trio of favorites so far, but actually it's really hard to pick because I enjoy them all.

The first 5th I heard was Levi/Atlanta and though I liked the symphony a lot of it glossed right by me. I definitely agree with the divide and conquer approach, I must've listened to the 1st and 2nd mvmts maybe four times each before I even got to the Scherzo!

This symphony really opened up to me after I had put it away for a while to focus on others and then stumbled upon a live recording of Eschenbach w/ Houston on tour in Vienna, and for me, it's a desert island pick now. It's at Operashare, or you can PM me for links. I've beat the drum for it before in another thread, so I won't here. But his approach really makes sense to me, brings out a lot of detail, and when I listen to it, the world seems to disappear.

Bertini I also like in the 5th, and I have several new ones in the to-listen-to pile I'm looking forward to, including Boulez and Barbirolli.

I was in the same boat no less than 6 months ago, so I'm always willing to help. It's been like a kid turned loose in a candy store for me!

I now have the scores to a few of the symphonies and they are fascinating to study. I like to go through and translate out his German instructions before, so when I listen I'll understand his directions. They are often VERY specific. Sometimes it's like Mahler speaking from beyond the grave! He had an absolutely clear picture of how he wanted his music to sound.

I'm not sure that Dover's glossary entirely gets the gist of the German-to-English translation, I feel some words in German have an extra flavor he was getting at that is almost impossible to translate. I mean to start another thread about reading his scores.

But these are two directions he uses a lot -  Nicht eilen! (Don't hurry) and Sehr gemessen (Very measured)

[BachQ]

I now have the scores to a few of the symphonies and they are fascinating to study.

Yes they are ....... fascinating, almost monumentally so .........

[Christopher RA]

Bertini I also like in the 5th, and I have several new ones in the to-listen-to pile I'm looking forward to, including Boulez and Barbirolli.

Boulez's Mahler is for me an unexpected treat.  One would expect (at least I had expected) to find a lifeless and useless performance from Boulez (based on the word of others), but in fact there is a new world of proportion and balance.  I've heard his recordings of Mahler 2, 3, 5, and 6 - they are all excellent.

I started on my path through Mahler with Symphonie Nr.5 (Chicago/Solti).  I put it on while I was doing homework, and eventually I could listen to movements in concentration, and then the whole thing in concentration.

To follow scores is some good advice.  If it doesn't allow you to appreciate the music, then at least you will brush up on your German, or more likely learn some sort of music theory.

[Bogey]

.

To follow scores is some good advice.  If it doesn't allow you to appreciate the music, then at least you will brush up on your German, or more likely learn some sort of music theory.

Only one slight problem here....I do not read music.  Not a lick.

[George]

Only one slight problem here....I do not read music.  Not a lick.

Was any of the other advice of use to you, Bill?

[Bogey]

Was any of the other advice of use to you, Bill?

Absolutely....this thread is considered "gold" to me at this point with all the insightful feedback.  My main goal now is to set aside a bit of time this weekend for uninterrupted listening.  Until I do at least this, then I feel I have not approached this music appropriately.