Mahlerly Challenged

[George]

Thanks, George. The worst part is, we're dying to try Andy's three cheese chicken but we've put it off, first because Mrs. Rock was sick, and now me. We have been enjoying a damn fine chicken soup though 

Sarge

Yeah, I am always craving foods that I can't have when I am sick. I'm a complete baby when I am sick too. 

[Josquin des Prez]

Mmmh? There's nothing operatic about the Mahler symphonies. They are just very large tone poems.

[nut-job]

BTW, how did you like that performance?

The performance was excellent.  I was there the first evening and the members of the orchestra were obviously excited.  Of course the final cut will be patched together from the 3 or 4 performances they did that week, so when I get the recording there will be no telling if I am hearing the same thing I heard live.

[nut-job]

Mmmh? There's nothing operatic about the Mahler symphonies. They are just very large tone poems.

Obvious the tinge of genius, or even moderate perceptiveness, eludes you.   0:)

[Josquin des Prez]

Obvious the tinge of genius, or even moderate perceptiveness, eludes you.   0:)

Maybe, but inquiring minds would like know why is it that Mahler, the opera conductor who wrote operatic symphonies never bothered to write an actual opera.

[nut-job]

Maybe, but inquiring minds would like know why is it that Mahler, the opera conductor who wrote operatic symphonies never bothered to write an actual opera.

I don't think the fact that he conducted operas has much to do with it, in particular.  I find his mode of expression essentially dramatic rather than symphonic.

[Superhorn]

  I have never had any problems with Mahler; his music"clicked" with me when I was just a teenager nearly 40 years ago. Ditto Bruckner. I love both composers; eachis great in his own way.
For Mahler, I would suggest listening to his song cycles such as Des Knaben Wunderhorn,Songs of a Wayfarer and Kindertotenlieder,as well as the early Cantata Das Klagende Lied(Song of Lamentation) first before you plunge wholesale into the symphonies. These are mercifully short,and contain the germ of his symphonies,which sometimes quote these songs.
  I've always found that when you give complex works repeated hearings, what initially seems  diffuse,incoherent and chaotic often becomes logical and inevitable. This is true of many composers,not just Mahler. The old saying "familiarity breeds contempt" does not apply to classical music. In fact,it's exactly the opposite!  Familiarity increases  enjoyment !
 
  I have the Solti set with the CSO of the Mahler symphonies, and to me they're not"abrasive", but exhilerating!  IMHO, the recordings of 5,7,and 8 have never been surpassed.
  But Bernstein's Mahler is also great if not for every one, and there are great Mahler recordings by the likes of Abbado,Tennstedt, Mehta,Maazel,
Rattle, Klemperer,Mitropoulos,Walter and many other eminent conductors. There are Mahler interpretations for every one's taste,and often vastly different. No conductor has a monopoly on the one"right" way to do Mahler.

[marvinbrown]

That really surprises me, Marvin, considering your love of Wagnerian opera. I've always thought of Mahler 8 as the opera he never wrote...and that's the way I listen to it, especially Part II. It's his Faust opera.

Sarge

  That's part of my problem Sarge, I can not reconcile Part I with Part II, if that is the intent??  It seems that the two have been juxtaposed next to each other and have nothing to do with one another.  Perhaps continuity in theme was the intent, I do not know and I am not sure, but musically I find myself struggling to make sense of it all.  I must be missing something here, I know I am.  Maybe in time I will learn to appreciate it more.

  marvin

[marvinbrown]

 
 
  I have the Solti set with the CSO of the Mahler symphonies, and to me they're not"abrasive", but exhilerating!  IMHO, the recordings of 5,7,and 8 have never been surpassed.

  I have often read that Solti's interpretation can be characterized as "Mahler on steroids"!!  Personally I can see/hear that Solti wanted Mahler's music to hit the listener with force, brutal force! But I also appreciate the warmth in the Bertini set. Warmth that to my ears is missing from the Solti set.  Perhaps there is no perfect interpretation to Mahler's titanic (pun intended  ) symphonies but from my experience I would not be inclined to recommend the Solti set to someone who is "Mahlerly challenged". To each his own I guess  . 

  PS: someday I would like to hear Bernstein's take on these symphonies, but for now I am happy with the 2 contrasting sets (Solti & Bertini) that are in my collection.

  marvin

[Renfield]

Mahler, the opera conductor, wrote operatic symphonies.

Certainly. (That is: I agree.) But does that indicate a fundamentally different approach? My term, at least, was "rant", inherently a dramatic act.

Note that I am not trying to play devil's advocate, here; nor is my own conception of Mahler's works exhausted by "symphonically-proportioned rants". I'm just (still) wondering if there is anyone who enjoys the symphonies approaching them from the general viewpoint of, say, a classicist.

[Josquin des Prez]

I'm just (still) wondering if there is anyone who enjoys the symphonies approaching them from the general viewpoint of, say, a classicist.

Of course, one of the elements that mark the genius of Mahler is that his works can withstand radically different approaches and not end up looking the worst for it. That said, i think it has to be accepted that he was a fundamentally dramatic composer, the same way Beethoven was a fundamentally heroic one. It's just the way it is.

[Grazioso]

Certainly. (That is: I agree.) But does that indicate a fundamentally different approach? My term, at least, was "rant", inherently a dramatic act.

Note that I am not trying to play devil's advocate, here; nor is my own conception of Mahler's works exhausted by "symphonically-proportioned rants". I'm just (still) wondering if there is anyone who enjoys the symphonies approaching them from the general viewpoint of, say, a classicist.

To me, Mahler's symphonies are models of clarity, with logical, relatively easy-to-follow structures that just happen to be quite large. While his symphonies' style and length obviously won't appeal to all, they're not hard works, just sophisticated and grandiose in scale. To the poster at the beginning of the thread who said that Mahler is a bunch of boring stretches punctuated by the good bits, I'd say it's the reverse: Mahler was a gifted tunesmith and orchestrator, with beautiful themes and interesting moments fairly falling over each other in their superabundance.

I'll second the posters who recommend the Solti/CSO set: it's not the final word in these works, but overall darn good. The stereotype of Solti as a conductor who indiscriminately whips up excitement at the expense of relaxed beauty or subtlety is nonsense, like saying every Karajan performance is slick and soulless. And it's to Solti's great credit that he does indeed whip up excitement when called for. Classical music shouldn't sound geriatric and impotent--certainly not the exuberant, tension-laden (some say "neurotic") works of Mahler.

[imperfection]

To me, Solti's Mahler is essentially American: Bigger, Faster, Louder equals better! Yay!

I like my Mahler done with more subtlety and poetry than that, thank you very much. For a beginner, I would recommend the Kubelik set on DG.

[Renfield]

the Kubelik set on DG.

Indeed!

Solti's cycle I might hear one day for the sake of curiosity, but at this point, it's the Sinopoli that is next on my list for eventual purchase.

[DavidRoss]

To me, Solti's Mahler is essentially American: Bigger, Faster, Louder equals better! Yay!

I like my Mahler done with more subtlety and poetry than that, thank you very much. For a beginner, I would recommend the Kubelik set on DG.

Solti was Hungarian, wasn't he?  Isn't Bernstein the American conductor usually associated with Mahler?  Any other bigoted stereotypes you'd like to share with us today? 

Kubelik's is among my own faves, but it's a far more costly commitment for one just dipping his toes than several other cycles of merit (i.e. Bertini, Bernstein/NYPO, Chailly, Tennstedt).

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Solti was Hungarian, wasn't he? 

Yep, and Solti took his "turbo" approach with him no matter where on the planet he conducted, not just in Chicago.

[imperfection]

Indeed!

Solti's cycle I might hear one day for the sake of curiosity, but at this point, it's the Sinopoli that is next on my list for eventual purchase.

Oh you haven't heard the Solti cycle? You should, because I thought it was really different from all the other Mahler cycles. Try the 5th first to get a taste of the extremely thrilling but rushed and undernourished Solti Mahler.

[imperfection]

Solti was Hungarian, wasn't he?  Isn't Bernstein the American conductor usually associated with Mahler?  Any other bigoted stereotypes you'd like to share with us today? 

Kubelik's is among my own faves, but it's a far more costly commitment for one just dipping his toes than several other cycles of merit (i.e. Bertini, Bernstein/NYPO, Chailly, Tennstedt).

I never said Solti was American. I said his Mahler was "American". Please try to read carefully.

[DavidRoss]

I never said Solti was American. I said his Mahler was "American". Please try to read carefully.

I know exactly what you said.  My comment should not prove too subtle for you if you try to read it carefully.

[imperfection]

I know exactly what you said.  My comment should not prove too subtle for you if you try to read it carefully.

I don't think Bernstein share any of  Solti's qualities in interpreting Mahler which made me sick. Even though both could be considered "heavy-handed" conductors in Mahler, Bernstein pays much attention to detail and shapes every phrase and fine detail with care (sometimes with too much care, hence the excessive emotionalism), as opposed to Solti, who like I said, lets the orchestra blare and tear through Mahler's score which consists of extremely complex details that should definitely not be ignored in order to bring out a coherent and convincing performance. Why Solti's Mahler appeal to many is because it is like fast food. Tastes good for the time you are eating it due to its very strong and distinctive flavors, but in the long run fails to endure thoughtful repeated listening and in-depth analysis because it simply hasn't much nutritious value, or musical substance in this case.

I hope you will understand my metaphor, whether you agree with it or not.