Author Topic: The Art of Fugue  (Read 103400 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13835
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #400 on: December 13, 2018, 08:45:50 AM »
I suppose you mean this one:

Musical Offering, BWV 1079 [50:41]
Carlo Chiarappa
Accademia Bizantina
Carlo Chiarappa (Violin); Franco Andrini (Violin); Alessandro Temperi (Viola); Mauro Valli (Cello); Eva Katharina Dumig (Flute); Ottavio Dantone (Harpsichord)
WEA / Denon
Apr 1991
CD / TT: 50:41
Recorded at La chiesa di S. Angiolo Vico L'Abate.


Never-the-less ordered.

Yes I do. I have a friend who really rates it highly, he thinks it’s really innovative and special. Me, I just get annoyed by the nervousness of it, the only expression I can hear is brittle edginess. I just tried again but turned to Rampe’s recording in relief!
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8305
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #401 on: December 13, 2018, 10:17:57 AM »
… I just get annoyed by the nervousness of it, the only expression I can hear is brittle edginess. I just tried again but turned to Rampe’s recording in relief!

Never mind, I have ordered Rampe's too,
It's better to act today than to regret tomorrow.
(Mette Frederiksen)

Online Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13835
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #402 on: December 13, 2018, 10:58:24 AM »
Never mind, I have ordered Rampe's too,

Ah, Rampe's is on symphonyshare!
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline king ubu

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4075
  • sic transit gloria mundi
    • ubu's notizen
  • Location: Zurich, Switzerland
  • Currently Listening to:
    all music
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #403 on: December 13, 2018, 02:21:07 PM »
I thoroughly enjoy Dantone's "Art of the Fugue", too - don't know his "Musical Offering", but then I'm much less enamored with that work in the first place.
Es wollt ein meydlein grasen gan:
Fick mich, lieber Peter!
Und do die roten röslein stan:
Fick mich, lieber Peter!
Fick mich mehr, du hast dein ehr.
Kannstu nit, ich wills dich lern.
Fick mich, lieber Peter!

http://ubus-notizen.blogspot.ch/

Online San Antone

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 7982
  • Currently Listening to:
    American Music
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #404 on: December 13, 2018, 03:33:12 PM »
I thoroughly enjoy Dantone's "Art of the Fugue", too - don't know his "Musical Offering", but then I'm much less enamored with that work in the first place.

Most of the reviews I've seen also give it a positive notice.  I do not concern myself with the debate concerning for which instrument the AoF was written and simply respond to the sound of the music.  In this case, I am very impressed with Dantone's result.

Online Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13835
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #405 on: December 13, 2018, 10:04:55 PM »
What is it yous guys like so much about this AoF from Dantone?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 11:03:22 PM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Online Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13835
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #406 on: March 02, 2019, 09:23:13 AM »


I started off listening to this thing by Craig Sheppard, but gave up after 20 minutes or so. It seems interesting from one point of view only: technique. It’s sometimes hard to convince yourself that the performances haven’t  been doctored in some way, two recordings made at different times overplayed. The effect of extreme virtuosity is exacerbated by the fact that the voices are staggered in a way which verges on incoherence: there’s no sense of the voices responding, they may as well be in different rooms (or on different recordings!) The approach is pretty formulaic too, similar tempos, moods, colours, attack, portato etc. It’s about as interesting as watching a dog walk on its hind legs - cool at first but after two minutes you’ve had enough.

So I abandoned that one and went back to this



which is kind of the polar opposite, because here there’s so much ornamentation you kind of forget that you’re listening to a fugue! Which may be a good thing - I mean the structure matters less to me that the poetry. Still, expressively Asperen doesn’t get mileage out of inner tension either.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 09:38:10 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Online Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13835
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #407 on: March 02, 2019, 09:28:41 AM »
What is it yous guys like so much about this AoF from Dantone?

Dantone’s crew will do Art of Fugue next year in London (Barbican) as part of a short Bach festival.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3026
  • Location: usa
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #408 on: July 03, 2019, 12:56:52 AM »
How do people here feel about Schaghajegh Nosrati? how about MaGregor?

Online Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13835
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #409 on: July 03, 2019, 01:43:43 AM »
Re Nostrati there was a bit of discussion about it with me and Premont when it was released

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg1195428.html#msg1195428

 MacGregor’s OK, I mean inoffensive, Don Satz in his usual withering way would say it’s the sort of thing that’s OK for the car when you don’t want something that’ll take your attention away from the road.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline aukhawk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1137
  • Frankie
  • Location: England
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bach to Björk
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #410 on: July 03, 2019, 06:30:00 AM »
I have to bite my lip there, regarding La MacGregor's attention-grabbing qualities ...


Online Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13835
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #411 on: July 14, 2019, 06:50:38 AM »
.   

Going back to this this morning I was struck by three features, viz

1. The expressiveness of the melodies
2. The plasticity of the articulation
3. The reflective introverted slow tempos some of the fugues

I was also struck by the thought that Leonhardt DHM also distinguished itself with its expressiveness, and that this is not so common in interpretation of AoF really, so maybe Rubsam is showing some influence here, possibly more so than in the Philips AoF. Tempo comparison between Rübsam Naxos and Leonhardt (DHM) is interesting and though sometimes they come apart they often are close.

It’s a shame that the Rübsam isn’t better recorded, it’s distant.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 06:52:52 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline hvbias

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 438
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #412 on: December 20, 2019, 07:44:49 PM »


which is kind of the polar opposite, because here there’s so much ornamentation you kind of forget that you’re listening to a fugue! Which may be a good thing - I mean the structure matters less to me that the poetry. Still, expressively Asperen doesn’t get mileage out of inner tension either.

"there’s so much ornamentation you kind of forget that you’re listening to a fugue"

Pretty much the perfect way to describe it. Contrapunctus III sounds unrecognizable to me, I can switch between listening analytically or for pleasure, I was struggling to do either by this point. Does he say anything in the liner notes why he adds that much ornamentation?

Offline amw

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4321
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #413 on: December 20, 2019, 09:49:51 PM »
I liked the MacGregor recording when I listened to it but don't have strong opinions otherwise. I like the Asperen a little more, perhaps mostly because I'd never heard it played that way before and it enlivened my interest in the music.

Online Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13835
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #414 on: December 21, 2019, 10:41:53 PM »
I liked the MacGregor recording when I listened to it but don't have strong opinions otherwise. I like the Asperen a little more, perhaps mostly because I'd never heard it played that way before and it enlivened my interest in the music.

I especially like the weightiness, the density, of Asperen. It's a combination of the Zell instrument and all the agréments . I think it's pretty unique actually.

I’ve found it an increasingly rewarding performance to listen to over the past year or so since it came out. In the booklet, there's a fugue by fugue discussion by Bob van Asperen -- it's really helpful! 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2019, 11:25:19 PM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Online Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13835
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #415 on: December 21, 2019, 10:49:06 PM »
"Does he say anything in the liner notes why he adds that much ornamentation?

Quote
My interpretation of Bach's Art of Fugue on this recording takes into consideration the French manière of Couperin, Marchand and Marpurg. When the latter. fervent Bach disciple. whom "The Bachs" NB requested to write the preface to the reprint of the Art of Fugue. himself performed the many pieces by "our celebrated Bach" that he discusses in his treatise. including this very opus. he most probably did so in the above-mentioned "Paris manner" . effectively in Stylo Francese: on an assumed very lightly quilled instrument. and providing traditionally required. harmonically embedded agréments. made possible by a 'French'. delicate toucher, as contemporaries also observed in Bach's own performance: one hardly saw his fingers move..." 

(Bad OCR but should be readable)



Quote
Apropos the embellishments themselves, often only sketchily explained in the — not always undogmatic — trea-tises of the period, and their application in Bach's circle: not only do we find such agrements in manifold, written out form in the Art of Fugue, but in the first edition of the three-part Contrapunctus VIII there are traces of a system-atic ornamentation tradition in Bach's entourage as well. for here ornaments in the subject are imitated in all the answers, even in the bass. We are dealing here with a long inter-European tradition of both composers and players (J.J. Quantz!), who, in fugues, especially singled out the theme entries in this way (ill. p. 16 Cp. VIII).

Finally, I would draw attention in this context to another significant Rosetta Stone which pertains particularly
to the Art of Fugue. It concerns the Fughetta fiber Wir glauben all' an einen Gott (from Clavieriibung III), in com-parison with Contrapunctus VI, both "in Stylo Francese", as indicated by the composer above this last work (ill.).

This is apparently Bach's term for what was then gen-erally cultivated as the theatrical, 'over-dotted' style for the composition and performance of overtures and dances, which for that matter we also observe, in a wider sense, in other, sometimes quite dance-like Contrapuncti and Canons. Both works contain substantial corresponding elements, and, surprisingly, even almost identical closing phrases: the harpsichord piece (in full score) is 'bare' and unornamented, while the organ piece (in keyboard score) is ornamented with many specific and sometimes even exuberant French agrements (see Wir glauben all (transposed), and Contrapunctus VI (idealised), beginning and close).

Here the question could be raised: Are there grounds to assume that the wealth of agrements printed in the (sacred) chorale fugue for the organ was not equally intend-ed for the (secular) Contrapunctus for the harpsichord? In his personal copy of Claviertibung III, moreover, Bach lat-er added supplementary ornamentation by hand (Stauffer2), and in so doing did not shy away from the use of two simultaneous agrements, so characteristic of the French style.

 On the question of Bach's 'Art of Playing the Harpsi-chord', to conclude, his Upright Instruction (Auffi-ichtige Anleitung) in the Inventions and Sinfonias specifies no more than a "cantabile manner of playing" (cantable Art im Spielen). The impression gained from his pupils' testi-monies, including that of his son Carl Philipp Emanuel, that Bach taught Couperin's French manner and put it into practice himself, is confirmed by Marpurg, the Bach disciple and connoisseur par excellence, who in Paris had been schooled in the Couperin tradition, with its ever stressed jets coult as the basis of harpsichord and organ playing. After visiting Each personally in Leipzig, he con-fided in the little known first edition of his Kunst dos Clavier zu spielen (Berlin 175o): "I can say no more to you in praise of Couperin, than that the learned Bachs [J.S., W.F. and C.P.E] considered him worthy of their acclaim" (Ich kann Dir zurn Lobe des Couperin nicht mehr sagen, als daft die gelehrten Bachen ihn ihres Beyfalls wiirdig schlitzen), in so doing referring explicitly to Couperin' s manner of playing (ill. p.42).

In this light it is also understandable that Bach at dif-ferent times of his life expressed — and especially also to Marpurg — his great admiration for the "fine and manner-ly playing" (feine and manierliche Spielart) of Louis Marc-hand, whose style furthermore enjoyed such excellent esteem in Germany that at the Dresden court he was offered a post in the king's service for the extraordinary salary of "more than a thousand thaler" (Obituary).

« Last Edit: December 21, 2019, 11:37:12 PM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline hvbias

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 438
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #416 on: December 22, 2019, 05:42:07 AM »
Thanks Mandryka. I do think the instrument he uses sounds very beautiful with a real inviting chamber quality and the recording as usual from Aeolus is impeccable.

Online Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13835
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #417 on: December 22, 2019, 07:01:14 AM »


I wonder if Eckhart Kuper uses Bach’s written out ornaments for CU 3 that Asperen talks about, I don’t even know if the Bach manuscript with the annotations exists.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8305
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #418 on: December 23, 2019, 01:27:51 AM »


I wonder if Eckhart Kuper uses Bach’s written out ornaments for CU 3 that Asperen talks about, I don’t even know if the Bach manuscript with the annotations exists.

Bach's manuscript or manuscripts are lost. What we have are the printed edition and some manual copies of this and some of these contain minor corrections by Bach, but apparently not as to the ornamentation.. In the printed edition there is no ornamentation, which might be called typical French. I do not know about the copies, which - as far as I know - haven't been subject of intensive analysis as to their ornamentation. Peter Williams e.g. doesn't mention their ornamentation at all.

In the 18 Chorales (where Bach's fair copy of the last revised version is preserved) there are a few with more French kind of ornamentation. BWV 659 (mostly written out) and BWV 662 (partly written out).

But to claim that the AoF should be performed in the French style because Bach thought highly of F Couperin and left some works which obviously use French ornamentation would correspond to the thought that the AoF should be performed in North German Fantastic style because Bach thought highly of Buxtehude and left a number of works which are written obviously in his style. So much the more as the AoF isn't written in the French style, with the exception of CPT. VI, where this is stated in the score. I can't but consider van Aspern's thoughts irrelevant.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 01:51:57 AM by (: premont :) »
It's better to act today than to regret tomorrow.
(Mette Frederiksen)

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3026
  • Location: usa
Re: The Art of Fugue
« Reply #419 on: December 23, 2019, 01:37:55 AM »


I wonder if Eckhart Kuper uses Bach’s written out ornaments for CU 3 that Asperen talks about, I don’t even know if the Bach manuscript with the annotations exists.
What's this recording all about? Is that a pedal harpsichord?