Advanced Rhythm (websites, theory)

[greg]

Maybe this is the wrong board for this, but are there any good websites out there explaining in detail very advanced rhythmic concepts, like what you see in Stockhausen and Ferneyhough? I've been wanting to follow along with some scores, but it's hard to find much that'll help you online.



i did find this:
http://www.adamscottneal.com/ferneyhoughpaper.pdf

anything else?

[Renfield]

You might actually (as in, almost certainly) have better luck tracking down sources for this kind of thing in print.

[bwv 1080]

Get the David Schiff book The Music of Elliott Carter

[greg]

Get the David Schiff book The Music of Elliott Carter

I have a couple of Carter scores, such as the Oboe Concerto, but I haven't seen anything as advanced rhythmically as what I'd like to learn about- such as groups of 11s, 23s, etc... basically, Ferneyhough type stuff- unless Carter really does use those rhythms in his other works that I don't know about.... (or they include it in the book anyway)

[bwv 1080]

I have a couple of Carter scores, such as the Oboe Concerto, but I haven't seen anything as advanced rhythmically as what I'd like to learn about- such as groups of 11s, 23s, etc... basically, Ferneyhough type stuff- unless Carter really does use those rhythms in his other works that I don't know about.... (or they include it in the book anyway)

That's pretty naiive thinking, complexity in rhythm is not about n-tuplets.  subdivisions of beats are trivial exercises - 3,5,7,11,43.6 etc.

The oboe concerto has a 63:80 structural polyrthythm at quarter note = 52.5 which forms the whole structure of the piece - hardly simply stuff. Rather than write out a bunch of tuplets, Carter takes the more elegant route of simply changing the tempo through his "metric (misnamed) modulations"

The other difference is Ferneyhough deliberately makes his scores look intimidating and creates rhythms that are impossible for performers to actually realize, the intention being to provoke a heightened state of concentration and edginess in the performance.  Carter expects the rhythms in his scores to be played as written and he makes them as readable and natural-looking as possible.

[greg]

That's pretty naiive thinking, complexity in rhythm is not about n-tuplets.  subdivisions of beats are trivial exercises - 3,5,7,11,43.6 etc.

The oboe concerto has a 63:80 structural polyrthythm at quarter note = 52.5 which forms the whole structure of the piece - hardly simply stuff. Rather than write out a bunch of tuplets, Carter takes the more elegant route of simply changing the tempo through his "metric (misnamed) modulations"

The other difference is Ferneyhough deliberately makes his scores look intimidating and creates rhythms that are impossible for performers to actually realize, the intention being to provoke a heightened state of concentration and edginess in the performance.  Carter expects the rhythms in his scores to be played as written and he makes them as readable and natural-looking as possible.

I'll have to take a second look at that score to see what you're saying, obviously I don't remember much of the score since I only followed through it once.

[Mark G. Simon]

Carter's sophisticated treatment of rhythm and tempo is one of the most fascinating things about his music. He doesn't try to overwhelm you with complexity; to the contrary he tries to make his texture as clear and simple as possible.

When I was at the Carter centennial concert on Dec. 13 I shook his hand and told him he ought to come out with a "Rhythm Book" to correspond with his Harmony Book. He said "It wouldn't make a very interesting book, I'm afraid". I think otherwise.

[greg]

When I was at the Carter centennial concert on Dec. 13 I shook his hand and told him he ought to come out with a "Rhythm Book" to correspond with his Harmony Book. He said "It wouldn't make a very interesting book, I'm afraid". I think otherwise.

Ha! Travel back in time now and tell him you know someone who'd be interested.