Modern Complexity

[Al Moritz]

I've tried to sing the merits of dutch composer Mathijs Vermeulen before. He is ( a little bit like Ives or Varèse or Langgaard) an outsider. His music is not "avant gardistic" , but some of his works are very tough.
Start with symphony nr 5 ,"Les lendemains chantant" - a 3 movement, 45 mins. colossus for large orchestra ( ca 1942-1944). He describes it as : only movement of singing, expressive factors & elements. - no drama, no poetry, no help from non-musical influences.

Donemus has issued an almost complete survey of both chamber and orchestral music.

Symfonieën
Symphonie No. 1, Symphonia Carminum (1912-1914)
Symphonie No. 2, Prélude à la nouvelle journée (1920)
Symphonie No. 3, Thrène et Péan (1921)
Symphonie No. 4, Les Victoires (1941)
Symphonie No. 5, Les lendemains chantants (1945)
Symphonie No. 6, Les minutes heureuses (1958)
Symphonie No. 7, Dithyrambes pour les temps à venir (1965)
Overige werken
On ne passe pas, voor tenor en piano (1917)
Les filles du roi d'Espagne, voor mezzosopraan en piano (1917)
The soldier, voor bariton en piano (1917)
La veille, voor mezzosopraan en piano (1932: versie met orkest) (1917)
Sonate pour violoncelle et piano (1918)
Trio à cordes (strijktrio) (1923)
Sonate pour piano et violon (1925)
De Vliegende Hollander, voor orkest (1930)
Deuxième sonate pour piano et violoncelle (1938)
Trois salutations à notre dame, voor mezzosopraan en piano (1941)
Le balcon, voor mezzosopraan of tenor en piano (1944)
Préludes des origines, voor bariton en piano (1959)
Quatuor à cordes (strijkkwartet) (1961)
Trois chants d'amour, voor mezzosopraan en piano (1962)

Pjme,

very many thanks for reminding me of Matthijs Vermeulen. Upon recommendation by a knowledgeable listener/composer I bought the orchestral music a few years ago and was just as blown away as he predicted me to be. Today I listened again to the 3rd and 5th symphonies, and indeed, the music of this decidedly first-rate, yet sadly unknown, composer is incredible. It is highly polyphonic, in fact, he may be the most polyphonic of all symphonic composers that I know. Unduly simplified, the music can be described as several endless melodies constantly playing against each other--the visceral effect, the sheer emotional and intellectual excitement created by the textures is stunning. A riveting musical journey.

In the Donemus CD booklet the composer/conductor Otto Ketting writes about the second symphony:
"The complexity is sometimes no less than in Stockhausen's Gruppen, but in 1920 this comparison could not be made."

Without a doubt for me, Vermeulen is one of the best and most important symphonic composers of the 20th century, relegating some other far-better known symphonists to the second tier.

[Robert]

Pjme,

very many thanks for reminding me of Matthijs Vermeulen. Upon recommendation by a knowledgeable listener/composer I bought the orchestral music a few years ago and was just as blown away as he predicted me to be. Today I listened again to the 3rd and 5th symphonies, and indeed, the music of this decidedly first-rate, yet sadly unknown, composer is incredible. It is highly polyphonic, in fact, he may be the most polyphonic of all symphonic composers that I know. Unduly simplified, the music can be described as several endless melodies constantly playing against each other--the visceral effect, the sheer emotional and intellectual excitement created by the textures is stunning. A riveting musical journey.

In the Donemus CD booklet the composer/conductor Otto Ketting writes about the second symphony:
"The complexity is sometimes no less than in Stockhausen's Gruppen, but in 1920 this comparison could not be made."

Without a doubt for me, Vermeulen is one of the best and most important symphonic composers of the 20th century, relegating some other far-better known symphonists to the second tier.

I have his symphony 4. excellent polymelodic music. (the melodic lines are equal and independent, each going its own way). It hits home with me much more now than when I first heard it. . It seems the Chandos disc Al has heard is oop. The price for the Donemus set is atleast 175.00.  I have not heard enough of his music to warrant spending the money..although in the realm of possibility....It seems his music is hard to locate. I will search abit further.....

[pjme]

You can get the Donemus set ( 3 CD's) in the Netherlands for 35 euro ( ex; postage) . Try Boudisque http://www.boudisque.nl/

Symphonies 2, 6 en 7 can be downloaded for little money at Chandos. http://www.theclassicalshop.net/details06MP3.asp?CNumber=CHAN%209735
the Chandos CD can still be ordered from the Hague/ Residentie Orchestra.http://www.residentieorkest.nl/cd-shop/index-cdshop.htm

Just listened again to "La veille" ( The eve) for mezzo & orchestra ,with a very young Jard Van Nes and "Passacaille et cortège" from 'The flying Dutchman" - moving and "grandiose" music ( not pompous, but deeply heartfelt - aiming for greatnes).

[mahlertitan]

I would second Luke's list of contemporary 'new complexity' British composers - Ferneyhough, Finnessey, Barrett et al

The Ian Pace CD Tracts contains a good sampling of solo piano music by these composers, particularly Richard Barrett's Tracts which the pianist said is perhaps the most difficult piece he knows of.

A couple old school serialists not mentioned were Wolpe and Babbitt

Qianlong huh? are you going to do Jiaqing next?

[Maciek]

You might enjoy visting loudav's AGP project.

Also, I would like to recommend 2 of my pet threads:
Little-known Polish composers 966-1945 (for the early 20th century bit)
Little-known Polish composers from 1945 on

Though I'm not sure you'll find anything complex enough for your needs there.

Well, maybe you should try Bogusław Schaeffer - some of his music is extremely complicated. Though he is quite versatile, so sometimes he does write some much easier listening stuff...

Maciek

[PetroHead]

Thanks a lot folks. I really appreciate this. Some great recommendations.

Be sure to pop in and update whenever you have choices fulfilling the published parameters.

[uffeviking]

I've heard a Scelsi quite a lot. Remarkable composer indeed.

Completely unfamiliar to me, but I just read about a new project at this year's Salzburg Festival scheduled by the new Intendant Jürgen Flimm. The article in Der Spiegel states that Scelsi does not belong to any school  and is a music historical original. He improvised his bombastic intoxicating music at home on his piano and other instruments, recorded it on tape and turned the tapes over to second ranking composers to orchestrate them. Then he edited and corrected the work of his hirelings. 

[lukeottevanger]

Scelsi is fantastic - but 'bombastic' is not the first word that would spring to mind in describing his music. Though his composition methods may seem strange and aloof, and of course he was an eccentric Prince, the essence of his music is the abnegation of 'the self' - he saw himself as a postman, merely delivering the music which came from somewhere higher; and of course photos of him are rare if not unobtainable, and he prefered to represent himself with a simple Circle, again denying his own importance and personality (this whole line of thinking stemming from his interest in Hindu thought)

[Mark G. Simon]

Completely unfamiliar to me, but I just read about a new project at this year's Salzburg Festival scheduled by the new Intendant Jürgen Flimm. The article in Der Spiegel states that Scelsi does not belong to any school  and is a music historical original. He improvised his bombastic intoxicating music at home on his piano and other instruments, recorded it on tape and turned the tapes over to second ranking composers to orchestrate them.

A kind of avant-garde Paul McCartney.

[Kullervo]

Scelsi is fantastic - but 'bombastic' is not the first word that would spring to mind in describing his music. Though his composition methods may seem strange and aloof, and of course he was an eccentric Prince, the essence of his music is the abnegation of 'the self' - he saw himself as a postman, merely delivering the music which came from somewhere higher; and of course photos of him are rare if not unobtainable, and he prefered to represent himself with a simple Circle, again denying his own importance and personality (this whole line of thinking stemming from his interest in Hindu thought)

This is the only photo that exists of Scelsi, as far as I know.

[uffeviking]

In the same Der Spiegel article about Scelsi is an interview with the director Jürgen Flimm where he is being asked his opinion of why our relationship with modern music is such a complicated one. [My translation:] "Because we are too cowardly and too lazy. Looking back is always nicer than the look ahead because we are familiar with the past."

Hear, hear! 

[Kullervo]

In the same Der Spiegel article about Scelsi is an interview with the director Jürgen Flimm where he is being asked his opinion of why our relationship with modern music is such a complicated one. [My translation:] "Because we are too cowardly and too lazy. Looking back is always nicer than the look ahead because we are familiar with the past."

Hear, hear! 

Well, one has to have deep roots in the past in order to bear the fruits of the future, né?

[Scriptavolant]

Well, one has to have deep roots in the past in order to bear the fruits of the future, né?

It isn't an aut-aut, of course. Each modern language is somehow related to the past. That doesn't justify cowardice and laziness.

[DavidW]

In the same Der Spiegel article about Scelsi is an interview with the director Jürgen Flimm where he is being asked his opinion of why our relationship with modern music is such a complicated one. [My translation:] "Because we are too cowardly and too lazy. Looking back is always nicer than the look ahead because we are familiar with the past."

Hear, hear! 

I think that I need more context to properly understand the quote.  He is not a composer, he's a musical director right?  So his inclusion by using the word "we" appears to be a little lie-- he's softening the blow on condemning a group of people (contemporary composers) that he's not apart of.  But I don't think that's what he meant, which is why I need the context.

[karlhenning]

Hah! A DavidW sighting!

[uffeviking]

I think that I need more context to properly understand the quote.  He is not a composer, he's a musical director right?  So his inclusion by using the word "we" appears to be a little lie-- he's softening the blow on condemning a group of people (contemporary composers) that he's not apart of.  But I don't think that's what he meant, which is why I need the context.

Welcome back, David!

Now to Jürgen Flimm: He was not 'condemning' contemporary composers, on the contrary, he was speaking for them. He was questioned about the direction he is taking as new Salzburg Festival Director, promoting contemporary music, like featuring Scelsi. His reply came to the question by the interviewer of why it is so difficult for the general audience to accept 'modern' music. That's when he said what I translated. Makes sense now? 

[LaciDeeLeBlanc]

If you want weird and way out there:

John Cage

hehehehe

[uffeviking]

Had him, but couldn't make heads nor tails out of him, god knows I tried! 

He is such a jolly man too, but his music? I hope you, Laci, are comfortable with it. 0:)

[LaciDeeLeBlanc]

Had him, but couldn't make heads nor tails out of him, god knows I tried! 

He is such a jolly man too, but his music? I hope you, Laci, are comfortable with it. 0:)

Actually I have touble with it. Some of his music quotes are great, but the "music", it's difficult to digest and recognize as actual music.

[Kullervo]

Actually I have touble with it. Some of his music quotes are great, but the "music", it's difficult to digest and recognize as actual music.

I really dislike Cage's music. At its best, it comes off as "pretty" with not much more substance than a Brian Eno ambient album. At its worst it's background music that is too annoying to ignore. I'm sure someone will come along and tell me I'm missing the point.