Bach Chamber and Instrumental music

[Bulldog]

He seems pretty uninspiring to me, and on spotify the balance works against the keyboard (it may be better on CD -- can anyone comment?) I listened to Byron Schenkman playing some Frescobaldi too, and I thought it wasn't very interesting.

But Ingrid Matthews is quite another matter, with her distinctive articulation, more like speech than song. She's very interesting.

I agree that Natthews is wonderful in the sonatas, but I don't have any problem with Schenkman.  He does a fine job in the 3rd movement of the last sonata; that's the test I always use (given it's a harpsichord solo).

[PaulSC]

Neither the recording balance nor the character of Schenkman's playing bothers me. On the contrary, I think there is a good sense of dialogue between the two performers on this set. It's true, however, that Matthews probably outshines Schenkman, whom I do not generally count among my favorite harpsichordists.

Like Don (bulldog), I think the solo harpsichord movement of BWV 1019 is Bach at his most uplifting and inspiring, and I think Schenkman's performance serves this music well.

[Mandryka]

Are you listening on CD PaulSC, or on spotify? 

[PaulSC]

I purchased MP3s with a reasonable bit rate (can't check the details right now). Maybe comparable to the streaming Spotify quality, or in between that and CD quality. This is the format in which I do almost all of my music listening these days.

If I have a chance to revisit the Matthews/Schenkman Sonatas over the next week or so, I'll keep your comments in mind. I haven't listened to this recording in a while...

[Antoine Marchand]

The Matthews/Schenkman set:

http://magnatune.com/artists/matthews

[Marc]

It's been quite a long time since I last listened to Bach's sonatas for violin & harpsichord, BWV 1014-1019. Right now I'm enjoying these great works whilst listening to a 2cd-set by Jean-Pierre Wallez and Jean-Patrice Brosse. My first impressions are that this is a fine set, but that the playing is a bit on the 'stiff' side, especially in some of the slow movements, reminding me now and then of Huguette Dreyfus in the harpsichord Partitas BWV 825-830.
The recording is good in general, even though the violin sometimes sounds a bit 'from a distance', as if these works were composed for harpsichord with violino accompagnato.



http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Sonates-Jean-Patrice-Brosse-Wallez/dp/B00009V2W5/?tag=goodmusicguideco

[Mandryka]

It's been quite a long time since I last listened to Bach's sonatas for violin & harpsichord, BWV 1014-1019. Right now I'm enjoying these great works whilst listening to a 2cd-set by Jean-Pierre Wallez and Jean-Patrice Brosse. My first impressions are that this is a fine set, but that the playing is a bit on the 'stiff' side, especially in some of the slow movements, reminding me now and then of Huguette Dreyfus in the harpsichord Partitas BWV 825-830.
The recording is good in general, even though the violin sometimes sounds a bit 'from a distance', as if these works were composed for harpsichord with violino accompagnato.



http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Sonates-Jean-Patrice-Brosse-Wallez/dp/B00009V2W5/?tag=goodmusicguideco

I haven't heard her partitas, but Huguette Dreyfus came up quite recently and I found myself listening to her Goldbergs. Friends raved about it, using expressions like refreshingly straightforward manner, no excessive ornamentation or rhythmic shifts, fascinating, elegant, beautiful , intelligent, tasteful, musical, lets the music speak for itself.

I thought it was really unexpressive;  she chooses pulse and sticks to it, with no deviations. (Good harpsichord though == Hemsch) I don't know if I'll ever be able to enjoy this type of playing really.

[prémont]

I haven't heard her partitas, but Huguette Dreyfus came up quite recently and I found myself listening to her Goldbergs. Friends raved about it, using expressions like refreshingly straightforward manner, no excessive ornamentation or rhythmic shifts, fascinating, elegant, beautiful , intelligent, tasteful, musical, lets the music speak for itself.

I thought it was really unexpressive;  she chooses pulse and sticks to it, with no deviations. (Good harpsichord though == Hemsch) I don't know if I'll ever be able to enjoy this type of playing really.

Agree about her Goldbergs.

I acquired her Partitas recently and find them interesting enough. Most interesting are the subtle agogics, which one maybe have to concentrate upon to hear, much like what is the case with Marie-Claire Alain's Bach playing, which also may seem rather mechanical to the inattentive ear .

[prémont]

It's been quite a long time since I last listened to Bach's sonatas for violin & harpsichord, BWV 1014-1019. Right now I'm enjoying these great works whilst listening to a 2cd-set by Jean-Pierre Wallez and Jean-Patrice Brosse. My first impressions are that this is a fine set, but that the playing is a bit on the 'stiff' side, especially in some of the slow movements, reminding me now and then of Huguette Dreyfus in the harpsichord Partitas BWV 825-830.
The recording is good in general, even though the violin sometimes sounds a bit 'from a distance', as if these works were composed for harpsichord with violino accompagnato.

You have made me curious of this balance, and despite your critical comment I have ordered the CDs from a reliable AMP seller,
I suppose Wallez plays on a modern violin?

[jlaurson]

Fresh from Forbes:



NOV 25, 2015
The Real Top 10 Bach Recordings

Bach, the Grand Master

There is something about the music of Johann Sebastian Bach that puts it in a category of its own.
Bach is the P.G. Wodehouse and the Shakespeare of the musical score rolled into one. He is the
only composer on whom I cannot overdose, and while his music seemed dated to his own, slightly
embarrassed sons, it strikes us as perfectly timeless now. His works pillars of mankind's culture,
and his music constitute the first tracks etched onto the golden record Voyager record that sails
toward hypothetical distant galactic civilizations. I should think that potential aliens might rather
get too sanguine an impression of us* ... but there we go: Bach is the bee's knees, and anyone
who knows Bach but doesn't love his music is going to be suspect to me, lest I learn a exculpatory
reason for their lamentable deficiency.

The Gramophone Bias

Gramophone Magazine is the only English language magazine that combines serious CD-reviewing
with the glossy, popular magazine approach. I used to read it religiously and got many of my first
hints, tastes, and opinions from its pages. BBC Music Magazine gets close; Classic FM Magazine
lasted nearly twenty years but wasn't taken seriously by the cogniscenti. No-nonsense, no-picture
publications like the American Record Guide or Fanfare Magazine (both American), which exude the
charm of telephone books, are total geek literature, arcane, loved by the few dedicated readers, and
more or less published out of the basements of their respective, dedicated publishers... private
ventures and labors of love that, like the lamented International Record Review, won't likely survive
their founders.

In my time as a clerk at Tower Records, we would sometimes make fun of Gramophone Magazine's
rather obvious pro-English biases. "Proximity bias" or "mere exposure effect" might be the appropriate
euphemism for them being unabashed homers. And indeed, when they published a "10 Best Bach
Recordings" list published early last year, they topped it in such a ridiculous way that it needed soft
rebutting which I hope to provide hereby...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/11/25/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings/

[aukhawk]

A good read - thanks.  And some very well-reasoned choices, with one or two that I shall have to look up without delay 

[prémont]

Fresh from Forbes:

Yes, thanks, indeed a good read. 
There are however nowadays so many outstanding Bach-recordings, that one often chooses at random.
This fact made me a Bach-completist.

[Jo498]

#10 on Gramophone#s list is not at all British (neither literally nor "in spirit"), though, it's Harnoncourt's 2000 St. Matthew. Unless this is a different list.

I think the main fault of that list might even be the choice of works, not recordings. The orchestral suites in favor of all organ music, cantatas and motets?
(tbh those suites are among the pieces I'd probably not miss if I could never hear them again)
Only 2/10 vocal music seems very biased. Even taking into account that 10 is really not enough (unless one cheats with a box of all cantatas or organ works or so...), at least 4 choices should be vocal music, I think.

[jlaurson]

#10 on Gramophone#s list is not at all British (neither literally nor "in spirit"), though, it's Harnoncourt's 2000 St. Matthew. Unless this is a different list.

I think the main fault of that list might even be the choice of works, not recordings. The orchestral suites in favor of all organ music, cantatas and motets?
(tbh those suites are among the pieces I'd probably not miss if I could never hear them again)
Only 2/10 vocal music seems very biased. Even taking into account that 10 is really not enough (unless one cheats with a box of all cantatas or organ works or so...), at least 4 choices should be vocal music, I think.

1.) Didn't claim that No.10 was Anglo... but it's telling that it's the ONLY choice that's not Anglo. I mean, 9-out-of-10 is a pretty good hint at bias, don't you think?

2.) That's a whole other can of worms. And I agree. Although I can see why a list aimed at newcomers would favor the easily digestible orchestral suites over cantatas or organ works which are, rightly or not, considered more inside-Baseball-Bach than the orchestral works and greatest instrumental hits.

[kishnevi]

2.) That's a whole other can of worms. And I agree. Although I can see why a list aimed at newcomers would favor the easily digestible orchestral suites over cantatas or organ works which are, rightly or not, considered more inside-Baseball-Bach than the orchestral works and greatest instrumental hits.

But it is a organ work which is undoubtedly the work by Bach which comes closest to being the Bach piece everyone in the world has heard at least once:  BWV 565 .
( The idea that it is not by Bach is inside-baseball-Bach,  but does not impede that point.)

[jlaurson]

But it is a organ work which is undoubtedly the work by Bach which comes closest to being the Bach piece everyone in the world has heard at least once:  BWV 565 .
( The idea that it is not by Bach is inside-baseball-Bach,  but does not impede that point.)

As you admit yourself, I'm not as sure about the "undoubtedly"... nor do I think that its popularity (thanks to Dr. Fu-Man-Chu and other plotting henchmen, mostly) translates into: excellent introduction to Bach. My favorite piece would be BWV 582 (Passacaglia), perhaps, and I'd be happy to make more people listen to it. But the organ is, let's face it, a bit more arcane an instrument than an orchestra.

[Jo498]

If one tried to match roughly the proportions of Bach's Oeuvre out of 10 there should be 1 orchestral, 1 chamber, 3-4 keyboard and organ and 4-5 vocal. (And this is already giving some advantage to orchestral and chamber.)
Of course one need not do this strictly but they chose 3 orchestral, 2 chamber, 3 keyboard (but without organ) and 2 vocal which is rather biased. I won't quibble with the fact that only 2 out of the 7 (or is it only one WTC volume) keyboard discs are on harpsichord...
As Jeffrey seems to suggest one "best-of"-organ disc, including BWV 565 (and 582) would be considerably more accessible for newbies than e.g. the solo violin partitas.

In any case, choosing the Harnoncourt SMP is quite astonishing because this is really about as un-british as it gets (unless one wants to go for Scherchen, Richter or Mengelberg). Together with Gould's GBV it's also the only from the choices I have on my shelves.
(I am afraid I have none of yours but this is mainly because they are almost all very recent recordings and I basically stopped buying newer recordings of standard stuff unless there is an extremely good reason to do so. The liturgical reconstruction of SJP might give me such a reason...)

[jlaurson]

If one tried to match roughly the proportions of Bach's Oeuvre out of 10 there should be 1 orchestral, 1 chamber, 3-4 keyboard and organ and 4-5 vocal. (And this is already giving some advantage to orchestral and chamber.)
Of course one need not do this strictly but they chose 3 orchestral, 2 chamber, 3 keyboard (but without organ) and 2 vocal which is rather biased. I won't quibble with the fact that only 2 out of the 7 (or is it only one WTC volume) keyboard discs are on harpsichord...
As Jeffrey seems to suggest one "best-of"-organ disc, including BWV 565 (and 582) would be considerably more accessible for newbies than e.g. the solo violin partitas.

In any case, choosing the Harnoncourt SMP is quite astonishing because this is really about as un-british as it gets (unless one wants to go for Scherchen, Richter or Mengelberg). Together with Gould's GBV it's also the only from the choices I have on my shelves.
(I am afraid I have none of yours but this is mainly because they are almost all very recent recordings and I basically stopped buying newer recordings of standard stuff unless there is an extremely good reason to do so. The liturgical reconstruction of SJP might give me such a reason...)

Well, I'm not in the business of defending Gramophone's ways, and the list would have looked a little different if I had put it together from scratch, rather working along their lines. But not as much and certainly I would not have attempted to reflect Bach's output by quantity in the choices for what is essentially a list to "hook" people on Bach.

You make a good point re: Solo Partitas & Sonatas... or so one would think... but without having hard numbers available, I'd venture to say that discs of those sell better, in toto, than of his organ works.

I think including the Karl Richter Organ 3 CD organ set would be a wonderful introduction to the organ works. And I would probably chose this disc as an intro to the Cantatas. And maybe these Motets (Re-Issue No.1) would fit in nicely, too.

***

If you had a look at my shelves (almost a yard! is devoted just to Bach's organ works -- and even more to his cantatas) you would certainly not consider me guilty of sharing in this bias... but I know that I didn't arrive at this right away but by working my way up through the orchestral and chamber works. (Now I would part with all of Bach's works, if forced at gunpoint, to keep the cantatas, rather than keep the rest but part with the cantatas.)

The list got expanded in the accompanying discography, which also includes ionarts's founder's Charles choices, who is mindful about picking HIP and non-HIP versions.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-real-top-10-bach-recordings.html

Maybe it would be interesting to do such a list with all-HIP and all non-HIP... I wonder who would show up for the latter. Queyras would get to stay, but maybe I'd substitute with Lipkind who is even further away from HIP... Milstein or Mintz for the S&P? Ristenpart for the Overtures? Richter for something... B-Minor, maybe. Rilling II for the M-Passion.

[aukhawk]

I think the main fault of that list might even be the choice of works, ...
Only 2/10 vocal music seems very biased. ...

And there was I, wishing for the French Suites to be included 

[Jo498]

I did not mean to criticize you for mirroring gramophone's list.
"Getting someone hooked" is also a very different objective from giving a somewhat representative sample that reflects the breadth of a composer's oeuvre at least to some extent.

Still, I'd say that either the violin OR cello suites would have been sufficient for a list with either objective (for getting newbies hooked I'd probably go with neither as I think the most accessible chamber music are the violin/keyboard sonatas although the string solo pieces have a fascination of their own without a doubt).
And it's also not clear why the newbie would need the violin concertos in addition to the Brandenburgs (and the orchestral suites as well), this seems fairly redundant.

Anyway, I do not think newcomers need to be pampered. One never knows beforehand to what kind of music someone will respond and I have heard several stories about people who took long to get into classical music because they were mainly confronted with the sunday brunch greatest hits So a broader spectrum should be an advantage even with newbie recs.

And organ music is a strange beast because while overall rather hermetic and often restricted to certain circles, there are some pieces, like the d minor toccata, but also the "little g minor" fugue, the "Wachet auf" chorale setting and maybe a few more one will find with high likelihood on a "Best of Bach" sampler.

@aukhawk: I think it doesn't really matter if one chooses the Partitas, French or English suites as representative. I personally think the partitas are the best and also quite accessible (if maybe not as easy to get as some of the French suites) and find the English still a little "dry" after 15 years or so but these are personal nuances that I'd never try to universalize.

I also agree that it can be as bad or worse if huge Bach-nerds (similarly for some other composers) choose pieces they are nuts about and cannot comprehend that they are tough for an inexperienced listener.
But the gramophone list seems on the one hand to stick to the most popular (concertos etc.) and on the other hand not to care about accessibility in case of the violin solos and the SMP.