A New Defense of Mendelssohn

[Josquin des Prez]

I said Mendelssohn, not Mozart.

Re My earlier anecdote about Wagner, I think the overture in question was actually the Calm Sea, Prosperous Voyage, not the Hebrides. As for my source for this memory, I think it is in a liner note at the bottom of a sealed box (which is under some other boxes). Surely someone here has read a couple of Wagner biographies and can confirm or deny my assertions?

I read Wagner's own biography, and he doesn't mention anything there.  He does talk about Mendelssohn on occasion, and his opinion of Felix isn't very great, though he seemed to respect the composer on a personal level. Just to show the type of situations described by Wagner, there is an interesting anecdote in the book where he talks about a rehearsal of Beethoven's 8th symphony in which both he and Mendelssohn were present. Outraged by the ineptitude of the conductor, Wagner walks to the podium and begins to discuss the work at length, pointing out mistakes in tempo and correcting interpretative issues. Back to Mendelssohn, he explains what he had just done. On the next attempt, the conductor decides to stubbornly stick to his own interpretation, but Mendelssohn, believing the performance was following the new directives, nods and congratulates the gaping Wagner for his interpretative skills. This story is obviously meant to show how Mendelssohn didn't really understand the music. Clever chap this Wagner, or so he thought. 

[eyeresist]

I read Wagner's own biography, and he doesn't mention anything there.  He does talk about Mendelssohn on occasion, and his opinion of Felix isn't very great, though he seemed to respect the composer on a personal level. Just to show the type of situations described by Wagner, there is an interesting anecdote in the book where he talks about a rehearsal of Beethoven's 8th symphony in which both he and Mendelssohn were present. Outraged by the ineptitude of the conductor, Wagner walks to the podium and begins to discuss the work at length, pointing out mistakes in tempo and correcting interpretative issues. Back to Mendelssohn, he explains what he had just done. On the next attempt, the conductor decides to stubbornly stick to his own interpretation, but Mendelssohn, believing the performance was following the new directives, nods and congratulates the gaping Wagner for his interpretative skills. This story is obviously meant to show how Mendelssohn didn't really understand the music. Clever chap this Wagner, or so he thought. 

I think I recall that story in Wagner's essay On Conducting, the only writing of his I've read. I find the story a little difficult to credit as Wagner tells it, though. The man who revived the St Matthew Passion and introduced Schubert's Great C major must surely have had some solid grounding of knowledge and taste!

From Wagner's complaints about kapellmeister traditions of his time, it sounds like the 19th century was a mirror image of the 20th century, going backwards from Norrington to Furtwangler

[Herman]

This story is obviously meant to show how Mendelssohn didn't really understand the music. Clever chap this Wagner, or so he thought. 

Indeed this story may have been intended this way, and you're naively assuming it is true.

It's just an egomaniac complimenting himself, and by that time Mendelssohn wasn't around anymore to correct the account (apart from te fact that he probably had been too nice to do so) .

[Brian]

Well, don't expect late Beethoven, or anything like that, but some of his works are not exactly skimpy in technicalities. A lot of hidden contrapuntal devices and some of his formal developments are impeccable. Perhaps i went too far in comparing him with Brahms, but i wouldn't consider his works simplistic. In fact, his technique is so damn assured one wonders if he couldn't have done more if he had been possessed by a more daring personality. Also, if you believe his expression is artificial, like a i do, you kinda have to stand in awe at the intelligence required to create such a lifelike counterfeit. 

I don't find it artificial. I just think he was a happy person.

[Josquin des Prez]

It's just an egomaniac complimenting himself

Sure sure, we all know what a rotten person Wagner was. Except he also turned out to be one of the most expressive composers in western history. Egomaniac or not, it's kinda hard to dismiss him.

[The new erato]

Sure sure, we all know what a rotten person Wagner was. Except he also turned out to be one of the most expressive composers in western history. Egomaniac or not, it's kinda hard to dismiss him.

Doen't mean he couldn't be wrong. In fact, most biographies of him shows that he was mostly wrong when he ventured outside his own music.   

[jlaurson]

Re My earlier anecdote about Wagner, I think the overture in question was actually the Calm Sea, Prosperous Voyage, not the Hebrides. As for my source for this memory, I think it is in a liner note at the bottom of a sealed box (which is under some other boxes). Surely someone here has read a couple of Wagner biographies and can confirm or deny my assertions?

Unfortunately my Wagner Biography is by Houston Chamberlain... so whatever there wold be in it about Mendelssoh, I'm afraid to look it up. 

However, Wagner had a few kind things to say about Mendelssohn (mainly when FMB was still alive). After hearing a performance of "Paulus" in Dresden, he said: "MB has shown us in this way, in utter refinement, a work that is proof of the highest achievement in the arts...". He conducted the 42nd Psalm and the "Scottish" Sy. a year after FMB had died, and called the Hebrides overture (If anything inspired the Dutchman, than this, not "Calm Sea") "one of the most beautiful masterpieces we have". (According to Cosima's Diary entries.) Certainly the choirs in Wagner's early operas show more than just a hint of the Mendelssohn oratorios... and that's not even bringing up Wagner's own cantata.

Obsessively listening to my favorite Mendelssohn Symphony, meanwhile:


ALL sacred, vocal Mendelssohn from Carus 14 CDs [half of them SACDs] for just E 179.-

[jlaurson]

Doen't mean he couldn't be wrong. In fact, most biographies of him shows that he was mostly wrong when he ventured outside his own music.   

Wouldn't it be funny to read a letter of FMB's to his sister on that event... something along the lines of:

"Saw that obnoxious but talented Wagner-chap in rehearsal today. Butzenweiller conducted the Beethoven 8th and made a right hash of it. Wagner saw it fit to jump on stage, pontificate about Beethoven in general and tempi specifically--not without merit or justification, I should hasten to add, and then instructed Butzenweiller how to adapt to his instructions. The players were confused, and Butzenweiller conducted exactly the same way he had before, incapable of as little as a controlled ritard. Wagner, however, gloated next to me, beaming with joy how he had just helped the great master (Beethoven) to his due right. I didn't want to point out that nothing at all had changed in the performance and nodded at him friendly. He's a blustery chap, but I think he'll surprise us yet."

[Haffner]

Wouldn't it be funny to read a letter of FMB's to his sister on that event... something along the lines of:

"Saw that obnoxious but talented Wagner-chap in rehearsal today. Butzenweiller conducted the Beethoven 8th and made a right hash of it. Wagner saw it fit to jump on stage, pontificate about Beethoven in general and tempi specifically--not without merit or justification, I should hasten to add, and then instructed Butzenweiller how to adapt to his instructions. The players were confused, and Butzenweiller conducted exactly the same way he had before, incapable of as little as a controlled ritard. Wagner, however, gloated next to me, beaming with joy how he had just helped the great master (Beethoven) to his due right. I didn't want to point out that nothing at all had changed in the performance and nodded at him friendly. He's a blustery chap, but I think he'll surprise us yet."

This is extremely clever and imaginative. Bravo!

[karlhenning]

Except he also turned out to be one of the most expressive composers in western history.

"Expressive composers in Western history" is no small set, of course.

[Mark G. Simon]

Mendelssohn is one of music's great geniuses. Anyone who asserts otherwise can't be taken seriously.

[op.110]

Also, if you believe his expression is artificial, like a i do, you kinda have to stand in awe at the intelligence required to create such a lifelike counterfeit. 

Agreed. Well put.

[Homo Aestheticus]

Daniel Barenboim chimes in:

"There are some composers who have written masterpieces that have contributed to the development of music, and others who have written masterpieces that have not had this kind of historical importance. For example, Mendelssohn. If he had not come on this earth, we would be so much the poorer for it. But music would have developed exactly the same way...."

http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/news/interviews/detail.aspx?id=6066

[eyeresist]

Daniel Barenboim chimes in:

"...For example, Mendelssohn. If he had not come on this earth, we would be so much the poorer for it. But music would have developed exactly the same way...."

I'm not sure that's true. My listening experience tells me that the symphonies of Schumann and Mendelssohn together set the mode for the mid-19th century Romantic symphony. I can hear them both in minor figures like Gernsheim and Reinecke, as well as masters like Brahms and Dvorak (and of course the earlier mentioned Wagner connection). Schumann's influence was more structural and thus easier to calculate, whereas Mendelssohn pioneered the more nebulous areas of orchestral colour and national flavour, particularly in the Scottish and Italian symphonies and the best known overtures, which we might also call important pregenitors of the later symphonic poem. I believe Nationalistic Romantic music might have been very different without Mendelssohn's example - certainly the Russians Borodin and Rimsky are indebted to him for his examples in colour and mood. I'd say Grieg is as well.

[Herman]

There is a kind of scherzo in 1845 - 1880 music, from Brahms to Tchaikovsky, which would not have had that same whispy elfin shape if Mendelssohn hadn't been around.

[jlaurson]

If  Mendelssohn had not come on this earth, we would be so much the poorer for it. But music would have developed exactly the same way...."

Well, that's the stereotype--and measured against Beethoven, Haydn, or Wagner, it's not wrong--as far as stereotypes go.
These generalizations are very useful, because they allow us to compress complex facts into a few words... without them, we'd be very helplessly lost in a sea of information-overflow.

But if we wanted to pick it apart, we could do that, of course.

1.) Mendelssohn the conductor and orchestra builder had--in this "passive" role--a HUGE influence on how music developed. He created repertoire and thus made it more difficult for contemporary composers to stand out; style-wise and quality-wise. If that didn't affect the development of compositions, I don't know what did.

2.) Mendelssohn, the composer, influenced composition most lastingly in the field of the concert overture (as I wrote in my little appreciation)... which can be seen as the precursor to the Symphonic Poems of Liszt and even the Tone Poems of Strauss.

[schweitzeralan]

A nice piece in  The Times  last Saturday: 

"Since World War II, Mr. Masur has fought to restore Mendelssohn's reputation. Mendelssohn, he said, should be given the same respect accorded Bach and Beethoven. As founder and chairman of the International Mendelssohn Foundation he has been involved in projects like restoring the composer's house in Leipzig, Germany, as a cultural center.

Mr. Masur suggests that inappropriate interpretations of Mendelssohn's music have also damaged his legacy. The "Scottish" Symphony,  he said, is often played in a "harmless" manner, which "is a great mistake, as it's a very serious and dramatic piece"

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/01/arts/music/01schw.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=mendelssohn&st=cse

******

Hear, hear!



quote]
Did Mendelssohn really compose his first symphony at the age of 12?

[Josquin des Prez]

2.) Mendelssohn, the composer, influenced composition most lastingly in the field of the concert overture (as I wrote in my little appreciation)... which can be seen as the precursor to the Symphonic Poems of Liszt and even the Tone Poems of Strauss.

Mmmh, not really. Berlioz was the precursor to the Symphonic Poems of Liszt, and the precursor of Berlioz was Beethoven.

[karlhenning]

More of an argument to be made for Mendelssohn influencing Tchaikovsky, than Liszt, I think.

[jlaurson]

Mmmh, not really. Barlioz was the precursor to the Symphonic Poems of Liszt, and the precursor of Berlioz was Beethoven.

"Mmmh, not really" is inadequate as a response to any statement, much less one that is backed up by a reasonably discriminating explanation in the text you evidently couldn't be bothered reading.