Mozart a fraud?

[Bulldog]

Mike, let me ask you a question. How many composers that were contemporary with Mozart do you actually know ? I mean have you actually heard the music of, say, Vanhal, or Myslivececk ? How about Paul Vranicky (Wranitsky), Anton Wranitsky, Paisiello, Andrea Luchesi, Josef Fiala, etc, etc etc. The list runs in to several dozen names. How distinctive IS the style of music YOU know as Mozart ?

Tell us what you think of this piece, by Josef Myslivececk,

Overture
Il Gran Tamerlano
(Italy 1771)

Amazingly 'Mozartean' yes ? And this Myslivececk was a close family friend of the Mozart's for many years. This written when Mozart was only 13 by Myslivececk in Italy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj78iHzcXBk

And others such as -

Giovanni Paisiello
Antonio Salieri
Andrea Luchesi
Paul Wranitsky
Anton Wranitsky
Josef Martin Kraus
Vicenzo Righini
J.B. Vanhal
Josef Fiala
Josef Cartellieri
J.C. Bach
H.A. Gelinek
Theresia von Paradis

etc.

//

I'm very familiar with the music of most of the composers cited above.  Not one of them comes close to the quality of Mozart's better works.

For better or worse, Newman doesn't offer anything of substance.  There can only be two reasons.  One is that he doesn't have any substance.  The other is that all substance will be in his promised book (which he has been promising for years now).

The board seems to have more extremists now than ever.  Unfortunately, we have other members who indulge them.  As for me, I'm getting off this sinking ship.

[Josquin des Prez]

Now he's talking to himself again. Good grief, will there ever be an end to this?

[Josquin des Prez]

And his dishonest purpose, if that's what it is, doesn't really matter. The odds are he will never bring forth his case.

It matters in the sense it contributes to the ongoing erosion of our western legacy. It is imperative that we understand people like Newman have an ulterior motive and that their ideas should not be taken into consideration at all times.

[knight66]

A discussion with these people about both sides of the debate could be beneficial to all of us, especially to you and I.

You mean....to you and me.

Mike

[Christie]

Now he's talking to himself again. Good grief, will there ever be an end to this?

Josquin, you will notice that my patience with Mr. Newman is not in the healthiest of conditions either. Exciting discoveries are exciting discoveries, and perhaps I should contain myself until his book comes out but I should rather like not to. I had hoped this could be merely a subtext to the post above, reading between lines, as it were, but I do not wish to be misunderstood. I am not Mr. Newman.

Mike, thank you.
Should it have been -
Let us go then, you and me
in the poem?

[Brian]

[Josquin des Prez]

But not to the hard-headed rationalists here. 

Yes, you people have your uses from time to time. 

[Herman]

Let's stop this nonsense.

Agreed.

Bye!!! (Don't call us; we'll call you.)

[knight66]

Mike, thank you.
Should it have been -
Let us go then, you and me
in the poem?

Well, there the form is a contraction of..... Let us go then, you go and I will go. So the poet got it right.

Your contraction was.....beneficial to all of us, especially to you and to me.

Don't worry, I am easy to find fault with, I rarely type without error.

Mike

[drogulus]

It matters in the sense it contributes to the ongoing erosion of our western legacy. It is imperative that we understand people like Newman have an ulterior motive and that their ideas should not be taken into consideration at all times.

     No, that isn't important. What would his ulterior motive matter if he was right? This is me being naive again, probably, but the question of what is true about Mozart's compositions shouldn't be decided according to what is good for Western culture. What's really good for Western culture is preserving the spirit of free inquiry (and the fact of it) against the impulse to decide things according to what's good for whatever cult you ascribe to. However, in addition to being the best policy for its own sake, free inquiry has always been a huge benefit to the West, as well as everywhere else it has taken root. The occasional nut-case makes no difference in the long run.

[robnewman]

It seems that in this little conversation/exchange we have established there is really NO evidence for Mozart having attended school. Not during his entire lifetime. Nor, contrary to popular belief, was his father a skilled teacher of music theory, composition, harmony or orchestration. (In fact, his father Leopold Mozart was little more than a failed student of philosophy at the University of Salzburg and a man who fraudulently had published in his name a violin treatise by the Italian virtuoso Tartini). But tradition is such a strong thing with Wolfgang Mozart that most people here still believe the boy wrote a series of symphonies, masses, concertos and operas without ever being under the tuition of a music teacher for any sustained period during his entire life. This contrary to the entire history of western music. And so, not only did he not go to school. Not only did he not study. But he was, of course a 'genius'. And, beyond this dogma, there is nothing to say. Who is fooling who here ?

The onus is on me to show this is crazy. Which, with respect, anyone can already see. Children do NOT write orchestral music of any quality. Nor do adults unless they have studied the same.  Nor do they write operas, or concertos. And even if they do so they cannot write them to any standard of performance without undergoing tuitition, lessons and study under those who are expert in such teaching. Take away this simple fact and we are in fantasy land.

We now await details of Mozart's academic and musical education. But we've already waited 200 years. Why worry about another century ? Accept such things and all else is just the same. The Mozart myth is riddled with such nonsense.

Regards

[not edward]

An artist's impression of some of the composers who actually wrote the music of that fraud Mozart:

[Lethevich]

Damn, I need to go to bed. Can the mods do me a favour and not delete any of the delicious overnight drama until, say, 10am GMT? 0:) 0:) 0:) 0:)

[Josquin des Prez]

     No, that isn't important. What would his ulterior motive matter if he was right? This is me being naive again, probably, but the question of what is true about Mozart's compositions shouldn't be decided according to what is good for Western culture. What's really good for Western culture is preserving the spirit of free inquiry (and the fact of it) against the impulse to decide things according to what's good for whatever cult you ascribe to. However, in addition to being the best policy for its own sake, free inquiry has always been a huge benefit to the West, as well as everywhere else it has taken root. The occasional nut-case makes no difference in the long run.

Do you know what a libel is? If i tainted the memory of Islamic culture by proposing that Abū Ḥāmid al-Ghazālī was a fraud and a lie, wouldn't that cause a stir among the Islamic world? And if i couldn't produce any evidence for my claim, wouldn't that be considered a slander? Don't you think the Muslims have a right not to have their heroes defamed with baseless accusations? So why should the west be subjected to it? What is the difference between free inquiry and defamation?

[knight66]

I am not so sure we established these things, or to the extent they were established, that they had any real relevance as to the possibility of Mozart writing what is ascribed to him.

We understand that you are going down the route of a lack of confirmation being a proof, but it seems to me to be more an indication of a lack of confirmation, something much more open ended than you suggest.

I assume you are a great Holmes fan, your entire thesis seems to rest upon a dog that did not bark.

Mike

[robnewman]

An artist's impression of some of the composers who actually wrote the music of that fraud Mozart:

There is that horrible moment when we realise that the joke (such as it is) has been on us all the time. You couldn't invent a more ridiculous fairy tale. And yet it's the FOX news of musicology. LOL  


Regards

[knight66]

An artist's impression of some of the composers who actually wrote the music of that fraud Mozart:

How did they manage those delicate piano concerti?

Mike

[robnewman]

How did they manage those delicate piano concerti?

Mike

These great concertos have their own special story. I will send you a copy of the chapter on them before publication. Only 5 of these were actually published (of the 27) during his lifetime, as you may know. And it's quite a long story. Still, yes, these are great works. And their story is remarkable. But he (Mozart) was not their composer.

Regards

[not edward]

How did they manage those delicate piano concerti?

Mike

I think you will find that the younger, less ripe bananas were able to contrast their firm nature with the lightness of the piano writing. However, one of the bananas was somewhat overripe and the knowledge that he was no longer fit for human consumption clearly led to the darker thoughts of the D minor and C minor. (Certainly, it is self-evident that those two concerti, so much deeper in partially broken-down sugars, could not have been written by the same banana who wrote the lighter major-key concerti. My researches also indicate that it is possible some of the tarter works in Mozart's alleged oeuvre, such as A Musical Joke, were not written by bananas but in fact a plantain instead and passed off fraudulently as the product of Musa sapientum.)

[Guido]

Don't you think the Muslims have a right not to have their heroes defamed with baseless accusations?

Nope. What kind of ridiculous nanny state are you advocating? Genius stands up for itself.