Mozart a fraud?

[Herman]

My goodness. The timpani part of the Haffner symphony is in Leopold's writing, not by WAM. And that makes the Haffner symphony a fraud? Ridiculous.

[robnewman]

My goodness. The timpani part of the Haffner symphony is in Leopold's writing, not by WAM. And that makes the Haffner symphony a fraud? Ridiculous.

No Herman,

You are not reading what I've written, again.

I said there are 5 parts to this issue. Please read my post again.

I am saying that step 1 is to agree these timpani parts are NOT by W.A. Mozart. And also that these parts were sent by Leopold Mozart in Salzburg to W.A. Mozart in Vienna.

And we are still waiting for agreement about this. If you are still not sure about this, and if people here are still not sure about this, let me know, and I will give you evidence in full support of both of the above FACTS. OK

[Herman]

No. Not OK.

My proposal is you stop this nonsense now.

As I said (and other longstanding members said): why don't you talk about composers you like (who doubtless didn't complete their timpani parts in full either BTW), rather than continue this disheartening charade.

[robnewman]

No. Not OK.

My proposal is you stop this nonsense now.

As I said (and other longstanding members said): why don't you talk about composers you like (who doubtless didn't complete their timpani parts in full either BTW), rather than continue this disheartening charade.

And my proposal is that if you don't want to talk about Mozart being a fraud you should, immediately, without further delay, and without any further explanation, stop posting here on this thread, whose name is..........'Mozart a Fraud' ? Which seems to me a fair and reasonable request.

Secondly, I expressly told you that this subject comes in 5 parts and that we are still at Part 1. But you didn't understand that, did you ? So I wrote it again.

Thirdly, if you wish to discuss this subject we need to go from Part 1 to Part 2, and then to Parts 3, 4 and 5. Which may, I suggest, end your charade, and might allow others to read this thread without further examples of your incompetence.

Thank You

[Catison]

The suspense is killing me.  Why not just lay out parts 1-5 in order.  You know, like a normal person who is trying to make an argument?

[robnewman]

The suspense is killing me.  Why not just lay out parts 1-5 in order.  You know, like a normal person who is trying to make an argument?

Because there is no evidence, yet, that you or anyone else, accepts Part 1. And since we are stalled at this point, we have to wait until these things are agreed. I don't spend lots of time on such an issue without doing it methodically. Starting at the beginning. With the FACT that the timpani parts are NOT by W.A. Mozart and with the FACT that these were sent TO W.A. Mozart in Vienna from Salzburg by Leopold Mozart. A simple enough Part 1 to agree about. Why, I've even offered to produce evidence if anyone doubts it. Can't get better than that, can I ?

It's like extracting a tooth, right ? 

[DavidRoss]

Why not just lay out parts 1-5 in order.  You know, like a normal person who is trying to make an argument?

Your question answers itself, Brett. 

[Herman]

The suspense is killing me.  Why not just lay out parts 1-5 in order.  You know, like a normal person who is trying to make an argument?

Because this is not "a normal person trying to make an argument."

We're looking at a major attention seeker here, who'll do anything to keep people annoyed with him.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

The second FACT is they were sent TO Mozart in Vienna by LEOPOLD MOZART who was in Salzburg. Right ? That is the documentary fact. Right ? If you don't believe me I can produce evidence of this.

Please do.

(Sorry for the delay. I had a meeting at my daughter's school. 'There is a world elsewhere'. And now I'm off again for some other pressing things.)

[Gurn Blanston]

Alright, Robert. I tell you up front that I have no interest or intention of getting involved with you little amusement here, but since your needle is stuck in a groove for now until someone deigns to tell you the story of the Haffner Symphony, K 385, I am going to extend myself a type far more than I usually would on a holiday.

During the summer of 1782, Mozart, already preoccupied with establishing his name in Vienna, finishing his opera Die Entführung aus dem Serail (The Abduction from the Seraglio), mending relations with his fiancé Constanze, and relocating to another residence, received a letter from his father asking him to write a symphony for the ennoblement of Sigmund Haffner, son of the Salzburg burgomaster. The composer responded to his father, "I am up to my ears in work. By a week from Sunday, I must arrange my opera for wind instruments, or someone else will do it and secure the profits instead of me. And now you ask for a new symphony, too! How on earth can I do that? ...well, I will have to stay up all night, for that is the only way; for you, dearest father, I will make the sacrifice. You may rely on having something from me in each mail delivery."

Nevertheless, the first movement of what would come to be known as Symphony No. 35 was completed within a week and sent back to his father in Salzburg; over the course of the next several weeks, the remaining movements were finished and mailed as well. Based on historical evidence, it is highly probable Mozart did not meet his father's deadline. Nonetheless, the delay was justified as it resulted in one of the finest works of the young composer's career.

In preparation for the next Lenten concert season, Mozart was involved in creating an academy of music at the Burgtheater in Vienna. Wanting to perform the symphony he had so quickly rushed to his father, he wrote to Leopold Mozart requesting the score (he actually said "since I have to have extra parts copied out anyway, since the orchestra here is much larger, I don't care whether you send me the full score or a set of parts. And don't forget the minuets"). Many weeks later, and after several exchanges of letters, Leopold sent the symphony back to Mozart. Impressed by the work he had long forgotten, Mozart wrote to his father, "Most heartfelt thanks for the music you have sent me...my new Haffner symphony has positively amazed me, for I had forgotten every single note of it. It must surely produce a good effect."

There you go, lad, have at it, do. I shall wait with bated breath.






----------------
Listening to:
Vandeville / Louchart / Rouault - Louis Jadin (possible true composer of Mozart's fortepiano sonatas? - Nocturne #3 in F for Oboe & Piano 3rd mvmt - Allegro

[Rod Corkin]

Wow Newman here at GMG! 

[DavidRoss]

Oh boy!  The Corkster and Newman at once!  Now all we need is Sean and we'll have the Trifecta!

[Gurn Blanston]

Wow Newman here at GMG! 

And being treated quite well, too, Rod. See? You were wrong about us all this time. We LOVE Robert.



----------------
Listening to:
Vandeville / Louchart / Rouault - Louis Jadin - Sonata #3 for Piano 4 Hands 3rd mvmt - Potpourri: Allegro

[Rod Corkin]

And being treated quite well, too, Rod. See? You were wrong about us all this time. We LOVE Robert.

Those words may come back to haunt you! 

[robnewman]

Alright, Robert. I tell you up front that I have no interest or intention of getting involved with you little amusement here, but since your needle is stuck in a groove for now until someone deigns to tell you the story of the Haffner Symphony, K 385, I am going to extend myself a type far more than I usually would on a holiday.

During the summer of 1782, Mozart, already preoccupied with establishing his name in Vienna, finishing his opera Die Entführung aus dem Serail (The Abduction from the Seraglio), mending relations with his fiancé Constanze, and relocating to another residence, received a letter from his father asking him to write a symphony for the ennoblement of Sigmund Haffner, son of the Salzburg burgomaster. The composer responded to his father, "I am up to my ears in work. By a week from Sunday, I must arrange my opera for wind instruments, or someone else will do it and secure the profits instead of me. And now you ask for a new symphony, too! How on earth can I do that? ...well, I will have to stay up all night, for that is the only way; for you, dearest father, I will make the sacrifice. You may rely on having something from me in each mail delivery."

Nevertheless, the first movement of what would come to be known as Symphony No. 35 was completed within a week and sent back to his father in Salzburg; over the course of the next several weeks, the remaining movements were finished and mailed as well. Based on historical evidence, it is highly probable Mozart did not meet his father's deadline. Nonetheless, the delay was justified as it resulted in one of the finest works of the young composer's career.

In preparation for the next Lenten concert season, Mozart was involved in creating an academy of music at the Burgtheater in Vienna. Wanting to perform the symphony he had so quickly rushed to his father, he wrote to Leopold Mozart requesting the score (he actually said "since I have to have extra parts copied out anyway, since the orchestra here is much larger, I don't care whether you send me the full score or a set of parts. And don't forget the minuets"). Many weeks later, and after several exchanges of letters, Leopold sent the symphony back to Mozart. Impressed by the work he had long forgotten, Mozart wrote to his father, "Most heartfelt thanks for the music you have sent me...my new Haffner symphony has positively amazed me, for I had forgotten every single note of it. It must surely produce a good effect."

There you go, lad, have at it, do. I shall wait with bated breath.






----------------
Listening to:
Vandeville / Louchart / Rouault - Louis Jadin (possible true composer of Mozart's fortepiano sonatas? - Nocturne #3 in F for Oboe & Piano 3rd mvmt - Allegro

Thank you Gurn Blanston ! Yes. And no doubt Rod Corkin will give credit where it is due, that we can, at last, actually discuss the Haffner and other parts of 'Mozart's' output. A round of applause to you for this.

Robert Newman

[Gurn Blanston]

Those words may come back to haunt you! 

I think I'm already haunted.

Well, tonal inflections lose their impact upon being digitalised...



----------------
Listening to:
Vandeville / Louchart / Rouault - Louis Jadin - Nocturne #2 in c for Oboe & Piano - Andante

[robnewman]

Because this is not "a normal person trying to make an argument."

We're looking at a major attention seeker here, who'll do anything to keep people annoyed with him.

You here again Herman ? Well, in my book, attention seekers should be ignored, especially if they've nothing to contribute. Why, only the other day I watched a speech being heckled by a man who insisted on heaping abuse at the speaker. It turned out that he, the heckler, didn't even understand English.

So I guess the best thing is to ignore hecklers. What do you say Herman ?

[robnewman]

Wow Newman here at GMG! 

Why, it's Rod Corkin ! How're things Rod ?

Robert

[robnewman]

I think I'm already haunted.

Well, tonal inflections lose their impact upon being digitalised...



----------------
Listening to:
Vandeville / Louchart / Rouault - Louis Jadin - Nocturne #2 in c for Oboe & Piano - Andante

How true Gurn, why, only the other day I was lamenting the end of vinyl records and valve amplifiers. I'm an analogue person in a digital universe !! 

[Gurn Blanston]

How true Gurn, why, only the other day I was lamenting the end of vinyl records and valve amplifiers. I'm an analogue person in a digital universe !! 

I'm sure you were only kidding, Robert. Talk about something that has a twisted past!    



----------------
Listening to:
Vandeville / Louchart / Rouault - Louis Jadin - Fantasie for Oboe & Piano 1st mvmt - Allegro