Cato's Grammar Grumble

[Karl Henning]

Yes, I pointed out adjectival apposition above, to use the technical term.

AsJo points out, possessive is only the most common use of the genitive. We — most people — talk about the possessive because we don't know the formal grammar. But a careful grammarian will note that in some uses the present participle takes the genitive. The simplest way to explain that is to say you use the possessive: "his being a liar" or "I was shocked by his lying." No one really believes he owns lying, or owns being, but the genitive/possessive is correct there.

Sorry I had not caught up!

[Cato]

Use of the Genitive can be rather odd among the Indo-European languages.

German has a Genitive of Indefinite Time, e.g. Eines Tages or Eines Abends (one day, one evening).

In poetry Ancient Greek and Latin occasionally used a Genitive of Exclamation, perhaps with an implied "the existence of..." as part of the idea. e.g.  "Oh, ( the existence of...) the Genitive!!!"

[Ken B]

Use of the Genitive can be rather odd among the Indo-European languages.

German has a Genitive of Indefinite Time, e.g. Eines Tages or Eines Abends (one day, one evening).

So does English. Of an evening we would go walking. Eines Abends, gehen wir spazieren.
It sounds a bit formal and old timey in English.

I saw once a nice definition of the genitive in English, but of course now forget it. (When you get to be almost half Cato's age the memory goes.) Pretty much anytime it is "of" something.

[André]

Same in French, I think. We will use a qualifier to indicate an indefinite time in the future, like "un beau jour", or "une bonne fois pour toutes". The first term is also used in Italian, as when Cio-Cio San pictures the day Pinkerton's ship will drop anchor in Nagasaki Bay: Unbel di vedremo. It's usually translated as "One fine day" in English. Nothing particularly fine or "bel" about that particular day, just an indication of an indefinite future.

[Ken B]

If I have a beef with Cato, then I have a beef with Cato. But if I have two of them, why don't I have two beeves with Cato?

[Cato]

If I have a beef with Cato, then I have a beef with Cato. But if I have two of them, why don't I have two beeves with Cato?

Thief - thieves, reef - reefs.     Why is English so messed up?

Mouse goes to mice, and louse goes to lice, yet we say "houses" instead of "hice," and "blouses" instead of "blice."  We could also ask why "mouses" is not possible.

Checking my yellowing linguistics books, I think I can deduce that perhaps gender groups from Old English might be involved.  cf.  Das Haus in German is Neuter, but Die Maus is Feminine.  Their plurals are similar, but not the same: Haeuser vs. Maeuse.  (I have no umlaut capability on this computer.)  On the other hand, it might just be one of those things.   

People speak languages, and people are not always consistent and logical.  Therefore, our languages have illogical and inconsistent items.   

[André]

What I find especially confusing, sometimes maddeningly so, is the inconsistency in the pronunciation of the vowel "i".

Miser, misery, fir, fire. And direct is pronounced differently if an American or an Englishman says it. Go figure...

[Ken B]

What I find especially confusing, sometimes maddeningly so, is the inconsistency in the pronunciation of the vowel "i".

Miser, misery, fir, fire. And direct is pronounced differently if an American or an Englishman says it. Go figure...

Ghoti, pronounced "fish".

[André]

Ghoti, pronounced "fish".

I had to look that one up .

[JBS]

What I find especially confusing, sometimes maddeningly so, is the inconsistency in the pronunciation of the vowel "i".

Miser, misery, fir, fire. And direct is pronounced differently if an American or an Englishman says it. Go figure...

Don't worry. French orthography has challenges of its own to an Anglophone, especially that habit of not pronouncing final letters, or even worse, hooking it onto the next word.

Fir and fire are sort of logical, since they derive from different roots in the Germanic family. Although pronouncing the i in fir as u might confuse, it seems to reflect the Old Norse word from which our modern word is said to derive.
However miser/misery is totally illogical, since miser directly derives from misery/miserable (stingy people were thought of as miserable people).

[André]

Don't worry. French orthography has challenges of its own to an Anglophone, especially that habit of not pronouncing final letters, or even worse, hooking it onto the next word

Fir and fire are sort of logical, since they derive from different roots in the Germanic family. Although pronouncing the i in fir as u might confuse, it seems to reflect the Old Norse word from which our modern word is said to derive.
However miser/misery is totally illogical, since miser directly derives from misery/miserable (stingy people were thought of as miserable people).

That's called a liaison. As in "dangerous liaisons » 

[Ken B]

Don't worry. French orthography has challenges of its own to an Anglophone, especially that habit of not pronouncing final letters, or even worse, hooking it onto the next word.

Fir and fire are sort of logical, since they derive from different roots in the Germanic family. Although pronouncing the i in fir as u might confuse, it seems to reflect the Old Norse word from which our modern word is said to derive.
However miser/misery is totally illogical, since miser directly derives from misery/miserable (stingy people were thought of as miserable people).

French is worse than English for silent letters. In French entire paragraphs are silent. I think Victor Hugo once wrote an entire novel pronounced é.

[Jo498]

What I find especially confusing, sometimes maddeningly so, is the inconsistency in the pronunciation of the vowel "i".

Miser, misery, fir, fire. And direct is pronounced differently if an American or an Englishman says it. Go figure...

https://www.learnenglish.de/pronunciation/pronunciationpoem.html

As I probably said here before, it is a strange irony of history, that not only one but two of the languages worst fit for the task became global languages: English and French.
If the Armada had prevailed in 1588 it would be Spanish or Latin both of which would be much better for non-native learners, not only but above all in pronunciation. (French is not as irregular and messy as English, of course, but it is still a nightmare if one compares sounds and printed letters.)

[Jo498]

Beef is from French (boeuf), so it wouldn't have an anglo-saxon plural. It is also a mass term, so plural is problematic anyway. This does not explain reef or house, of course.
I am not a linguist but I suspect that there is a general trend in many languages to assimilate unusual (like strong past tense etc.) to the standard. But apparently some words remain in the older forms.
This is obviously the case with strong vs. weak flexion in German verbs (the strong past of "backen" (bake) "buk" is still understood but uncommon and becoming obsolete, in favor of the weak "backte") and also "irregular" (actually foreign) plurals have been assimilated. The plural of "Thema" has been "Themen" for a long time while more technical words retain the Greek plural form, e.g. Lemmata.

[Florestan]

If the Armada had prevailed in 1588 it would be Spanish or Latin both of which would be much better for non-native learners, not only but above all in pronunciation.

Which pronunciation of Latin? French, German or Italian? 

[Florestan]

he plural of "Thema" has been "Themen" for a long time while more technical words retain the Greek plural form, e.g. Lemmata.

Parerga und Paralipomena. 

[Florestan]

https://www.learnenglish.de/pronunciation/pronunciationpoem.html

Great fun! 

[Jo498]

Which pronunciation of Latin? French, German or Italian? 

This would probably have depended on the particular circumstances of this alternative history*
But doesn't matter, even all of them used in parallel would have a stricter correspondence between letter and sound than English, it is mainly "c", "g", "gn" and of course the French totally mangle several vowels but even then it's better than English or French.

*There is an episodic novel based on a similar scenario. Unfortunately, rather boring, I don't think I ever read all of the episodes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavane_(novel)

[Florestan]

*There is an episodic novel based on a similar scenario. Unfortunately, rather boring, I don't think I ever read all of the episodes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavane_(novel)

Roman Catholic ban on technological innovation, especially electricity... I'll never waste my time with such nonsense. 

[Karl Henning]

Ghoti, pronounced "fish".

Seeing that in a Batman episode was a high point in this word geek's life.