Cato's Grammar Grumble

[ibanezmonster]

Apache Ant is a Java library and command-line tool who's mission is to drive processes described in build files as targets and extension points dependent upon each other

Really? 

http://ant.apache.org/

[Lethevich]

I was vaguely aware of it before, but have just confirmed for myself that crevice and crevasse have distinct meanings. Kinda cool.

[DavidRoss]

Oh,  I just love this!

I love it, too!  Thanks, John!

[The Six]

A lot of people seem to hate this "it is what it is" phrase that's really popular now. Yeah, it's a cliche and does sound kinda dumb, but to me it has basically the same meaning as que sera sera, and nobody complains about that, I guess cause it's older and foreign and was in a song or something. Someone needs to make an "it is what it is" song.

[karlhenning]

. . . Someone needs to make an "it is what it is" song.

I'm on it.

[Brahmsian]

Not sure if it belongs here, but I thought I'd include 'redundant sayings'.  Here's one:

Dead carcass   

[karlhenning]

It's evolved so that the principal reading is trunk of a dead animal, and you're right, that suggests redundancy. But originally, it was anatomical (not the limbs/extremities, e.g.) in orientation, not specifically an evaluation of whether the creature is dead or alive.

[DavidRoss]

I'm on it.

Hmmm.  Here's a start, off the top of my head:

It is
What it is.
What it is, is what it is,
And it's not
What it's not,
What it's not's not what it is.

But it never will be
What it could be
What it should be,
For as long
As we neglect
To give what is
Due respect.

For it is
What it is.
What it is, is what it is,
And it's not
What it's not,
What it's not's not what it is.

[Lethevich]

Is 'strategical' outdated or valid in some circumstances? As it seems to fully duplicate 'strategic', I had assumed that it was incorrect but it seems to be listed in many dictionaries.

[DavidRoss]

Is 'strategical' outdated or valid in some circumstances? As it seems to fully duplicate 'strategic', I had assumed that it was incorrect but it seems to be listed in many dictionaries.

As in, "It can be strategical to return back an unwanted gift"?

[mc ukrneal]

Just saw this headline on the yahoo front page:

"Attempted suicide by Statue of Liberty..."

[Lethevich]

As in, "It can be strategical to return back an unwanted gift"?

Oh, indeedie, thanks. I constantly hear it used in sentences like "That was a great strategical decision" which sounds a bit clumsy.

[DavidRoss]

Oh, indeedie, thanks. I constantly hear it used in sentences like "That was a great strategical decision" which sounds a bit clumsy.

To my ear, too.  And contrary to the historical thrust of the English language.

[DavidRoss]

But, isn't "return back" redundant?

Yes. That's the point.

[Opus106]

I'm quite sure that the phrase 'from whence' has made an appearance in this thread before. It was therefore with surprise that I read this page which traces back said phrase to Dickens, Defoe and Shakespeare among others, after I found it in a poem by Walter Scott.

[karlhenning]

Aye, it's a redundancy with an impressive pedigree. Anyway, wasn't it Johnson who said of the Elizabethans that they were eloquent before they were grammarians?

[Opus106]

Aye, it's a redundancy with an impressive pedigree. Anyway, wasn't it Johnson who said of the Elizabethans that they were eloquent before they were grammarians?

I agree that it's easier off the tongue for modern speakers, and perhaps not-so-modern speakers as well, but as I said elsewhere, I prefer to side with logic in this case.

[knight66]

I like 'from whence' I seem to recollect the King James uses it. I have assumed that it denotes not merely the place but travel from it. Mind you it is archaic and I have never used the phrase as far as I recall.

So, if a disease comes 'from' France: that is its origin
If I say The pox continues to infect people here. Travel to France from whence it came, is now prohibited.

I think that denotes two things it started there and has travelled from there to here.

Could be entirely wrong, but that has been the way I have read that conjunction when I encountered it. I imagine you can turn up examples that would contradict my interpretation.

Mike

[Opus106]

Isn't the from in "from whence" itself redundant/tautological?

That's the usual complaint, and a justifiable one at that. I supposed that the misuse started in recent times; but as I posted earlier, it actually goes back many centuries, assuming it's a misuse at all.

[DavidRoss]

Isn't the from in "from whence" itself redundant/tautological?  Whence and whither being the (archaic) English equivalents of the (still current) German woher and wohin meaning where from (do you come) and where to (are you going). As opposed to plain wo = where as in where is (it situated).  I rather regret the loss of these differentiations of meaning, and still use them if I can find a context where it doesn't look entirely too absurd.  Though I can see it makes the language easier to learn without them.

If not for German grammar I couldn't say "Whence comest thou?" and "Whither thou goest?"