Cato's Grammar Grumble

[karlhenning]

Tangentially . . . the history of the development and proliferation of recording technologies has changed life in so many ways, and underscores the fact that, scarcely less Schliemann trying to unlock the riddle of Troy, what we don't know about the past is a vaster pool than what we know.

[Grazioso]

Of course.  It does seem to yield room for tendentious inferences, though.

I appreciate your approach to the question, though; thanks for your part in the discussion!

True, as does all historical study.

Just to clarify my approach: anyone can, with a little aptitude and effort, learn to conform to a style guide. Not everyone has the need or desire to. The great mass of men--or is that "wo/men"?  --communicate just fine without such training and compliance.

More interesting to me are the questions of a) how language functions in practice and b) the disjunctions between descriptive and prescriptive grammars and the attendant socio-political ramifications.

[karlhenning]

Of interest, indeed.

[Cato]

* The who/whom distinction has been dying out in spoken English--goodbye, inflections.
* A lengthy relative clause inserted in the "proper" position would have undercut the impact. Better to have divided it into two sentences: "A Dayton man stabbed his wife to death. Prosecutors refused to charge him with domestic abuse." (BTW, should he not be charged with murder instead of domestic abuse?)

That sentence actually needs to be: "Prosecutors had earlier refused to charge him with domestic abuse."  The report had information about a domestic disturbance at the 73-year old couple's house a few weeks earlier.  The past perfect or pluperfect tense would have clarified things immensely...but not completely!

A side note: the station of course played the call that the husband made to 9-11.  "I need the police to come to my house.  I just murdered my wife.  I just couldn't take her mouth any longer."

I am against playing such things, since they serve absolutely no public purpose whatsoever other than massaging the ids of the ghouls, geeks and freaks in the audience.  In this case, the effect was tragicomic.

What were her fatal words? 

In The Agony of Flies by Elias Canetti the author wonders: "And what if there is a word that kills?"

[Opus106]

I am against playing such things, since they serve absolutely no public purpose whatsoever other than massaging the ids of the [geeks] in the audience.

I take offence to that unnecessary generalisation.

[karlhenning]

Oh, there are good and deserving geeks, no question.

[Cato]

I take offence to that unnecessary generalisation.

Okay, erase "geeks" and substitute "schmucks."   0:)

[Grazioso]

Karl, you asked for historical examples of the singular they. I don't have ready access to an academic library atm, so I had to rely on Al Gore's fine invention for now. Grain of salt:

http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/sgtheirl.html
http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austhlis.html
http://betterbibles.com/2006/09/10/singular-they-in-english-bibles/

Overviews:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/magazine/26FOB-onlanguage-t.html
http://www.editorscanberra.org/a-singular-use-of-they/

[Cato]

Karl, you asked for historical examples of the singular they. I don't have ready access to an academic library atm, so I had to rely on Al Gore's fine invention for now. Grain of salt:

http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/sgtheirl.html
http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austhlis.html
http://betterbibles.com/2006/09/10/singular-they-in-english-bibles/

Overviews:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/magazine/26FOB-onlanguage-t.html
http://www.editorscanberra.org/a-singular-use-of-they/

Thanks for the information!

Consternating for the opponents of using "they" to refer to indefinites was this example:

Somebody must have have shown her the answer, didn't...?

How many people would end that sentence with "he or she" ?

[karlhenning]

Read this just now:

In the music industry, arguably the worst tragedy that can befall an artist is to die in their prime.

Not wringing my hands, you understand. Just chuckling. Quietly.

[Opus106]

Not wringing my hands, you understand. Just chuckling. Quietly.

I'm sure that they must have been referring to premature greying, and put an I in the place of a Y. An innocent mistake.

[Cato]

Read this just now:

In the music industry, arguably the worst tragedy that can befall an artist is to die in their prime.

Not wringing my hands, you understand. Just chuckling. Quietly.

More synchronicity! 

And concerning the content of the statement: actually, it all depends on the artist!   

Some never have a prime!   

[eyeresist]

Consternating for the opponents of using "they" to refer to indefinites was this example:

Somebody must have have shown her the answer, didn't...?

How many people would end that sentence with "he or she" ?

Really, "didn't" is incorrect. It should be "mustn't".


I am fine with "they" for the indefinite. It may be a neologism, but I think it works better than the alternatives. After being confronted with the issue at uni, I finally resolved that "they" is better than "s/he" (how the hell do you say it?), "he or she" (too unwieldy, especially when used more than once in a paragraph), "he" (possible inaccurate, potentially prejudicial) and "ve" (and various other true neologisms, none of which have any English precedent I know of).


Eche of theym sholde ... make theymselfe redy. — Caxton, Sonnes of Aymon (c. 1489)

[mc ukrneal]

Really, "didn't" is incorrect. It should be "mustn't".

I hate that work. I never use it. I even refuse to write it in my own post! 

It just sounds odd to me. I always feel that there is a more elegant or better sounding way to say that word.

[Opus106]

I always feel that there is a more elegant or better sounding way to say that word.

Like breaking it down to its components?

[eyeresist]

I hate that work. I never use it. I even refuse to write it in my own post! 

It just sounds odd to me. I always feel that there is a more elegant or better sounding way to say that word.

I think it's a word the British find more comfortable to use than the Americans (you're not trying to pronounce the first "t", are you?). Old British proverb: "Mustn't grumble!"

One thing that annoys me is the American use of "tony" as an adjective. It's a man's name, for flip's sake!

[Opus106]

One thing that annoys me is the American use of "tony" as an adjective.

What! Please use it in a sentence.

[mc ukrneal]

I think it's a word the British find more comfortable to use than the Americans (you're not trying to pronounce the first "t", are you?). Old British proverb: "Mustn't grumble!"

One thing that annoys me is the American use of "tony" as an adjective. It's a man's name, for flip's sake!

I know the pronunciation. Adding the 't' back might help. 

I have never used 'tony' as an adjective. In what context is it used? I can only think of the Tony Awards.

[mc ukrneal]

Like breaking it down to its components?

That, using a synonym, or changing the sentence around entirely.

[eyeresist]

"Tony" as an adjective seems to mean "classy", "refined" or "upper class". Presumably it is supposed to mean "possessing 'tone' ", i.e. refined tone.

"The Fforbes Hamilton Smythes live in a tony neighborhood."


Although the Onion did say this:

Report: Adjectives 'Tony,' 'Snarky' Used Only By Media
September 15, 1999 | ISSUE 35•33

BOSTON—According to a report released Monday by the McLuhan Institute For Media Studies, the adjectives "tony" and "snarky" are used exclusively by the media and have not occurred in person-to-person conversation in 36 years. "It is our finding that the most recent occurrence of 'tony' in a non-media context was during a conversation between two socialites at a 1963 New Year's Eve party at New York's Ritz-Carlton Hotel," the report read. "As for 'snarky,' to the best of our knowledge, the word has never been used by a non-media source." The adjectives join "glitterati," "gal pal" and "posh digs" in the pantheon of words and terms existing exclusively in the media.


http://www.theonion.com/articles/report-adjectives-tony-snarky-used-only-by-media,4007/