Cato's Grammar Grumble

[Karl Henning]

A fine, super-fine neologism!

[Karl Henning]

I think the regulars will enjoy this clip. 

http://www.youtube.com/v/1IvWoQplqXQ

Some of the irregulars, too, I shouldn't wonder.

[kishnevi]

From this AmazonUS listing
[asin]B00165QONU[/asin]

Editorial Reviews
"Clearly one of the supreme Bach keyboard exponents of our time!" -- Chicago Tribune

Vladimir Feltsman has a very personal view of the much-recorded Goldberg Variations, likely to illicit strong reactions. For some people this recording might come as a shock. There's no question that his interpretation is extremely unusual, and he is ready to take any blame or glory for it.

[Sean]

This thread should be a sticky, all thinking people are interested in grammar.

Don't mind if I post a topic on English lingua franca mistakes separately...

[knight66]

It stays towards the top of the board without needing to be helped there.

Knight

[DaveF]

[asin]B00165QONU[/asin]

Well, if it's so revolutionary that it makes me do something illegal, I gotta hear it!  (Sorry - grammar thread - I anticipate listening to it keenly.)

[Sean]

Links to files on English phrases and a vocabulary builder I put together, also posted a few years back but since revised.

https://www.box.com/s/zxa55ezmhveuct0vka2d

https://www.box.com/s/ck9tk0tays62dn3obpfs

[Cato]

From Amazon reviews:


Vladimir Feltsman has a very personal view of the much-recorded Goldberg Variations, likely to illicit strong reactions. For some people this recording might come as a shock.

Well, if it's so revolutionary that it makes me do something illegal, I gotta hear it!  (Sorry - grammar thread - I anticipate listening to it keenly.)

So "illicit" is a verb now?! 

And Dave F's reaction makes one wonder about the ancient belief that music can affect one's free will!   

Tell us what kind of illegality tempts you as a result of this interpretation!   

[Opus106]

Tell us what kind of illegality tempts you as a result of this interpretation!   

Bach on piano, to start with.

[DaveF]

So "illicit" is a verb now?! 

Strictly, this belongs in the "Spelling Grumble" thread - the reviewer just couldn't spell "elicit".

I've had a listen to some of Feltsman's Bach on Spotify and it's all perfectly pleasant, tasteful and uncontroversial.  I feel as far as ever from a crime spree...

[Sean]

It stays towards the top of the board without needing to be helped there.

Sure thing Mike.

[Sean]

Notes from my teaching files- the response to the negative question got me thinking for months...

Negative questions & statements The pasting loses my italics...

The responses required for showing agreement or disagreement to negatively phrased questions and statements-

It's a matter of using yes and no correctly in simple conversations so is of great importance, if somewhat difficult to convey because of its fundamental position in the language.

It remains a major source of confusion throughout the world where English is spoken by learners and is probably the most misunderstood aspect of the entire language.

It's an easy mistake to make but if wrong, native speakers will struggle or in many cases be entirely unable to understand answers to simple questions (and unfortunately it tends to seem bizarre, hearing yes when someone means no).

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

What is agreement?

It's when two people think the same thing.

So, if I say Yes and you agree, you also say Yes. This is easy.

However, if I say No you also say No.

Unfortunately, learners will say Yes when they hear No to mean yes I agree.
Don't do this.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


A sequence of positives, of course, stays positive, eg-

+2  x  +4  (= +8)  x  +2  (= +16)  x  +3  (= +48)  x  +2  (= +96)...

But a sequence of negatives alternates between positive and negative, because two negatives make a positive Eg-

-2  x  -4  (= +8)  x  -2  (= -16)  x  -3  (= +48)  x  -2  (= -96)...

(By this logic you'd only need one negative, plus any number of positives to say that the negative is true.)

However, negatives in English responses aren't like this.
Instead they work the same as the positives- and simply stay negative. Eg-

-2  x  -4  (= -8)  x  -2  (= -16)  x  -3  (= -48)  x  -2  (= -96)...

Additional negatives just reinforce the message, not change it.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

These are the words to listen out for-

no,  nobody,  nothing,  never,  or  not 

including-

doesn't,  wasn't,  isn't,  don't,  won't,  can't, shouldn't, wouldn't, hasn't, aren't  etc

When you hear these and you want to agree with the question or statement, the rule is to agree with its content, not whether it's true or not.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

To show agreement you match negative with negative.

There can be double, triple or many more negatives in a question or statement, but they only reinforce not reverse the meaning: this is a convention and isn't logical.

If you want to agree-

When the speaker is saying yes, you say yes.

And if they're saying no, you say no.

These questions are expecting you to to agree and say no.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

For instance-

If you do not have a pet tiger, you answer no to both these questions-

A. Do you have a pet tiger?

B. No

A. Don't you have a pet tiger?

B. No

Ie match no (not) with no to show assent/ agreement


oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Always say, for instance

No she won't, no.

Never

Yes she won't, yes.

& never

No she won't, yes.

& never
Yes she won't, no.     

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Or

Didn't you sleep well last night?

No, I didn't.   Not   Yes, I didn't


Or

Won't she get back by Monday?

No, she won't.  Not  Yes, she won't

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

If you want to agree with someone who is saying yes, you say yes.

And similarly if you want to agree with someone who is saying no, you say no (not yes)

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Some expressions in describing things (just read out)-

It's not too cold, no.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

No, it won't work, no.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

There's nobody there, no.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

No, it's never too late.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

She wouldn't come, no.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

No, there's nothing there.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The service in the shop isn't good, no not at all.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Similarly, you respond to negative preferences by matching the sentiment-

A. I like it.

B. Me too.

Or

A. I don't like it.

B. Me neither.   (Don't say 'Yes!')

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

You just keep saying no ie whether it's for the truth of a positive statement or the content of a negative statement-

This passage has 16 nos in it-
(read with shake head with nos & the doesn't, none, never, isn't & nobody)-

There's no rainy season in England; it doesn't have one, no; no, none at all; no, no rainy season, no; no, never a rainy season, no; no, there's no season; no there isn't one, no indeed; no season anywhere in England; no, nobody speaks of a rainy season; there is no such thing, no.

Learners wrongly change 11 of the 16 nos to yess!-
(Shake and nod head with nos (& doesn't, none, never, isn't & nobody) and nod with yess- showing it's wrong)

There's no rainy season in England; it doesn't have one, yes; yes, none at all; yes, no rainy season, yes; yes, never a rainy season, yes; yes, there's no season; yes there isn't one, yes indeed; no season anywhere in England; yes, nobody speaks of a rainy season; there is no such thing, yes.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Say No to agree to someone saying No. Don't add Yes.

Don't mix Yes and No in your answers.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Other examples-

Have you been to Beijing? No?
Don't say- No. (- when you have been to Seoul, ie thinking that 'No- it's not true that I haven't been')

You don't fly a helicopter do you?
Don't say- Yes, no. (or nod then shake your head) (!!)

People won't know what you mean.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

The rest here are examples of the basic form. In the first one for instance, 'Susan doesn't like it' is true, but you say no.

A. John likes soccer.

B. Yes.

A. But Susan doesn't like it.

B. No.
.                                                      .
'At immigration eg at the airport'-
A. You're entering the country at this point. Do you have any illegal foods in your baggage?

B. No.

A. No knives?

B. No.

A. Guns?

B. No.

A. Drugs?

B. No.
                                                               
.                                                         .

A. What's happening early next week?

B. Monday is a school holiday.

A. Oh, so there are no classes on Monday?

B. No.
.                                                         .

A. He was drinking beer in a bar last night.

B. How old is he?

A. 23. He wasn't breaking the law was he?

B. No.
.                                                         .

A. Is Julia coming here?

B. Yes.

A. But Steve isn't coming, you say?

B. No.

.                                                      .

A. I'm tired- I'm going to sit down.

B. That's the boss's chair, only for him.

A. Oh, can't I use it?

B. No.

.                                                         .

A. The work needs to be finished by Friday.

B. They'll never get it done by then.

A. Don't you think so?

B. No.

A. No?

B. No.
.                                                         .

A. We'll park on the car park.


B. Well, it doesn't look like we'll be able to.

A. Oh, there are no spaces left?

B. No.
. .                                                         .

A. I'd like a drink if there is one.

B. Sure, there's tea or juice.

A. There's no coffee?

B. No.

A. No?

B. No.
.                                                         .

A. What did you do last night?

B. I went to a bar, but it was empty.

A. There was nobody else there?

B. No

A. No?

B. No.

.                                                         .

A. We're going to the mountain on Saturday.

B. You know, I've already been there many times, so it's not so interesting for me now.

A. Oh, don't you want to go this time?

B. No.
.                                                                .

A. I'm waiting for some DVDs in the mail.

B. I think there's some mail arrived for you today- it's a letter.

A. Oh, not a parcel?

B. No.

.                                                      .
A. Take a look at my work.

B. The first part of it has got to be wrong.

A. Oh. Isn't it okay?

B. No.

A. No?

B. No.
.                                                      .

A. Is your computer okay?

B. I don't think it's working.

A. You don't?

B. No.


.                                                      .

A. What do you think of it?

B. Hey, this is awful!

A. You don't think it's good enough?

B. No.

A. No?

B. No.
.                                                      .

A. 13 times 13 is 169, I think.

B. Yes, it looks right.

A. I'm not wrong am I?

B. No.


.                                                      .

A. Is there something wrong with the phone?

B. I think it's broken.

A. Doesn't it work?

B. No.

A. No?

B. No.
.                                                      .

A. Is there something wrong with this bus?

B. I think it's broken down.

A. Can't it take us then?

B. No.

.                                                              .
A. Don't you wear a hat at university?

B. No.

A. No?

B. No.



.                                                              .

A. You don't come to university by train?

B. No.

A. No?

B. No.
.                                                              .

A. Is there life on other planets?

B. Well I suppose there could be.

A. So, you're not sure?

B. No.


.                                                              .
A. I see you have no swimming bag with you.

B. No.

A. So, you're not going swimming today?

B. No.
.                                                              .

A. Have a look for my pen where I was sitting, would you?

B. I can't see it.

A. It's not on the desk?

B. No.


.                                                              .
A. Could you go a week with no food?

B. No.

A. So, you wouldn't like it?

B. No.
.                                                              .

A. I'm trying to understand the response to the negative question.

B. It makes you think hard at first.

A. It's not easy.

B. No.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Example of just shaking head (not nodding)

A. She never laughs or similes.

B. You're right. She's not happy here.

A. (Shake head)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

This negative question formation is where a speaker is asking for confirmation of what seems to be a negative situation.

If there the situation is not negative however and there's been a misunderstanding then the other speaker should still not say Yes. and stop.

Instead they should begin again to explain the situation:


A. Is there something wrong with this bus?

B. I think it's broken down.

A. Can't it take us then?

B. Oh I think it can but we'll have to
     wait for it to be repaired.

.                                                              .

A. I'd like a drink if there is one.

B. Sure, there's tea or juice.

A. There's no coffee?

B. Yes yes there is but you have to
     go next door for it.

.                                                         .

A. Take a look at my work.

B. The first part of it has got to be
     wrong.

A. Oh. Isn't it okay?

B. Well the content is okay but it
     needs to be written differently.


oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Karl Henning]

A major source of confusion, because (obviously) the mindset is often somewhat different among speakers of many languages other than English.

A bit amusingly, there is a Russian phrase in fairly solid currency, да нет (i.e., yes no), which is a little au contraire-ish.

[Karl Henning]

You have selected a ADVANCE PURCHASE ticket

Would programming in the indefinite article an have killed them?

[North Star]

A major source of confusion, because (obviously) the mindset is often somewhat different among speakers of many languages other than English.

A bit amusingly, there is a Russian phrase in fairly solid currency, да нет (i.e., yes no), which is a little au contraire-ish.

A similar phrase in Finnish, too. (joo ei, yeah, no)

[The Six]

This thread should be a sticky, all thinking people are interested in grammar.

Ah, a nice example of incorrect comma usage! Clever!

[kishnevi]

A major source of confusion, because (obviously) the mindset is often somewhat different among speakers of many languages other than English.

A bit amusingly, there is a Russian phrase in fairly solid currency, да нет (i.e., yes no), which is a little au contraire-ish.

There's a phrase I use--usually mean to inject some humor into a matter of fact conversation--but it's something I picked up years ago from other people.

"It's a definite maybe"

Useful in situations at the job in which (for example) a customer has requested a shoe in white.  I go into the stockroom and discover we don't have size in white, but do have it in another color, perhaps beige. Or we have the desired color, but only in a half size up or down.  It's possible the second color will work for the customer, or that the not quite the right size will fit well enough to work for her,  so I bring it for her to look at and try one,  starting off the necessary explanation with "Well, it's a definite maybe".

[Sean]

A major source of confusion, because (obviously) the mindset is often somewhat different among speakers of many languages other than English.

A bit amusingly, there is a Russian phrase in fairly solid currency, да нет (i.e., yes no), which is a little au contraire-ish.

Australians are into this as well...

[Sean]

Ah, a nice example of incorrect comma usage! Clever!

I can't agree, my use of commas has widened in recent years.

I tend to use them where previously I'd have put in a more blatant dash or even colon.

However I also keep them to a minimum- sentences have weak and strong pauses and I try to avoid commas for the weak altogether.

[Elgarian]

The issue about the comma isn't so much about whether it's 'correct' or 'incorrect', but a matter of
(a) considering the attentive reader; and
(b) responding to the opportunity for accurate and musical expression.

The comma is an indicator of a certain kind of pause, and to use it indiscriminately tends to produce a leaden dullness and false rhythm to the prose. Dashes, colons, and semicolons all help to introduce a musical variety and offer enhanced opportunities for expression. So, for example, if we start with the original version, one feels immediately its clunky awkwardness of rhythm and dullness of expression:

This thread should be a sticky, all thinking people are interested in grammar.

The awkward form of the sentence jars with the content, and has the paradoxical effect of making one question why anyone should take an interest in grammar at all. Now let's look at alternatives:

This thread should be a sticky; all thinking people are interested in grammar.

This thread should be a sticky. All thinking people are interested in grammar.

This thread should be a sticky: all thinking people are interested in grammar.

This thread should be a sticky - all thinking people are interested in grammar.

Every one of the above has a differently nuanced expressive effect on a reader who is reading attentively. It's up to the writer to punctuate his sentence with delicate precision, in a way which best guides the reader towards his meaning.