Cato's Grammar Grumble

[Cato]

The issue about the comma isn't so much about whether it's 'correct' or 'incorrect', but a matter of
(a) considering the attentive reader; and
(b) responding to the opportunity for accurate and musical expression.

The comma is an indicator of a certain kind of pause, and to use it indiscriminately tends to produce a leaden dullness and false rhythm to the prose. Dashes, colons, and semicolons all help to introduce a musical variety and offer enhanced opportunities for expression. So, for example, if we start with the original version, one feels immediately its clunky awkwardness of rhythm and dullness of expression:

This thread should be a sticky, all thinking people are interested in grammar.

The awkward form of the sentence jars with the content, and has the paradoxical effect of making one question why anyone should take an interest in grammar at all. Now let's look at alternatives:

This thread should be a sticky; all thinking people are interested in grammar.

This thread should be a sticky. All thinking people are interested in grammar.

This thread should be a sticky: all thinking people are interested in grammar.

This thread should be a sticky - all thinking people are interested in grammar.

Every one of the above has a differently nuanced expressive effect on a reader who is reading attentively. It's up to the writer to punctuate his sentence with delicate precision, in a way which best guides the reader towards his meaning.

Excellent summation, especially the comment on musicality!

On a local NPR station this morning, I hear a fledgling broadcaster from Ohio State University reading various news items.

And he mispronounces practically every definite and indefinite article!   

Again and again I hear things like: "Thee bill will be up for eh vote in thee House today."  Or: "Thee police said thee man was eh white male driving eh late-model van."

When I have time later, WOSU will be receiving a (not "eh" since we are not in Canada...eh?!) politely incensed letter about thee errors!    0:)

[Parsifal]

"The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner, and nobody stops to ask what is wrong."

What's with that comma?  To my ear, it produces leaden dullness and false rhythme.   

[Cato]

"The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner, and nobody stops to ask what is wrong."

What's with that comma?  To my ear, it produces leaden dullness and false rhythme.   

I like it!   

[Elgarian]

"The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner, and nobody stops to ask what is wrong."

What's with that comma?  To my ear, it produces leaden dullness and false rhythme.   

Interesting example: there's a 'rule' about not using a comma before 'and', but of course the rule is only a guideline. I prefer to take each situation on a case by case basis, and sometimes one needs the comma before 'and' just to let a touch of air into a long sentence. A useful guide, I find, is to read the sentence aloud and get the feel of it as spoken. In this present example, we can play with the punctuation thus:

The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner, and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner; and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner. And nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner - and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.

If there's no comma at all, there's a rather clumsy coming-together of two words that don't quite fit comfortably - 'corner' is followed by 'and' so they tend to run together as 'cornerand'. Of the various options I think I prefer the comma - but none of the options is as clunky and horrible as this would be:

The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner, nobody stops to ask what is wrong.

[Parsifal]

Interesting example: there's a 'rule' about not using a comma before 'and', but of course the rule is only a guideline. I prefer to take each situation on a case by case basis, and sometimes one needs the comma before 'and' just to let a touch of air into a long sentence. A useful guide, I find, is to read the sentence aloud and get the feel of it as spoken. In this present example, we can play with the punctuation thus:

The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner, and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner; and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner. And nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner - and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.

If there's no comma at all, there's a rather clumsy coming-together of two words that don't quite fit comfortably - 'corner' is followed by 'and' so they tend to run together as 'cornerand'. Of the various options I think I prefer the comma - but none of the options is as clunky and horrible as this would be:

The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner, nobody stops to ask what is wrong.

Your last violates what I was taught about punctuation.  I would actually prefer

The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner; nobody stops to ask what is wrong.

Taking out the "and" gives the second thought more emphasis.  Two independent sentences would be too choppy.  Two sentence fragments which could stand as sentences are separated by a semicolon.

[Parsifal]

I don't like the sentence in any form.  Sobbing "Truth" standing around is an overwrought and ridiculous image, IMO.

Well, there's that...

[Elgarian]

Your last violates what I was taught about punctuation.

Yes exactly. That was the kind of misuse of the comma that caused me to join in this discussion in the first place.

[Elgarian]

I don't like the sentence in any form.  Sobbing "Truth" standing around is an overwrought and ridiculous image, IMO.

Of course it is - but that's a completely different discussion. The issue was: given the sentence, how might one best punctuate it?

[dave b]

The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner, and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner; and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner. And nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner - and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
================================================
As given above---yes, the imagery itself is absolutely ridiculous...but the question being: Which seems best to use, I guess I would pick that second one. Seems to make it more compelling.

I can't believe a new guy like me just jumped in here with forum veterans on a 125 page thread....oh, well.

[Sean]

Elgarian

Hi there, I must say I disagree and suggest you're behind the times a little. Commas are understated punctuation marks that can begin to suggest more than a pause and instead avoid the more disruptive use of colons, semicolons and dashes- if there's no better word for dashes?

We're getting used to not putting dots after abbreviations when everyone knows what eg or ie or viz means- even though the spellchecker here is still putting red lines under these for me... Keep things to an unsuperfluous minimum.

By the way unsuperfluous isn't in the COD, but it ought to be...

This thread should be a sticky, all thinking people are interested in grammar.

The awkward form of the sentence jars with the content, and has the paradoxical effect of making one question why anyone should take an interest in grammar at all. Now let's look at alternatives:

This thread should be a sticky; all thinking people are interested in grammar.

This thread should be a sticky. All thinking people are interested in grammar.

This thread should be a sticky: all thinking people are interested in grammar.

This thread should be a sticky - all thinking people are interested in grammar.

Every one of the above has a differently nuanced expressive effect on a reader who is reading attentively. It's up to the writer to punctuate his sentence with delicate precision, in a way which best guides the reader towards his meaning.

[Sean]

Cato

When I have time later, WOSU will be receiving a (not "eh" since we are not in Canada...eh?!) politely incensed letter about thee errors

Kiwis among others can't say a, the short version of the long A vowel. The morons can only say e.

There's no difference between bed and bad, or guess and gas.

How do these stupid accents take hold? Does the Kiwi bird sound like this?

[Karl Henning]

I don't like the sentence in any form.  Sobbing "Truth" standing around is an overwrought and ridiculous image, IMO.

Thus, I think it suits (and helps to characterize) the fictitious character speaking/writing it.

[Parsifal]

Thus, I think it suits (and helps to characterize) the fictitious character speaking/writing it.

Sort of an Elmer Fudd character?

[kishnevi]

To me it sounded like an interesting evocation, or perhaps merely a badly remembered misquotation, of Proverbs 8.

[Elgarian]

Hi there, I must say I disagree and suggest you're behind the times a little.

Just to be clear: it's nothing to do with the times, nothing to do with being dogmatic about rules, and nothing to do with resistance to change - but everything to do with what the writer may need in order to express him (or her) self with appropriate nuance and musicality.

Those other things you mention (the use of stops to indicate abbreviation etc) are indeed subject to the variations of fashion, but they have no comparable role in the conveyance of expression.

[Elgarian]

The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner, and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner; and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner. And nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
The Truth stands sobbing on a street corner - and nobody stops to ask what is wrong.
================================================
As given above---yes, the imagery itself is absolutely ridiculous...but the question being: Which seems best to use, I guess I would pick that second one. Seems to make it more compelling.

I can't believe a new guy like me just jumped in here with forum veterans on a 125 page thread....oh, well.

Welcome to the swimming pool. You help to make the point very nicely, actually: that you have such a preference nicely demonstrates that each of the options presents different expressive characteristics.

[Cato]

Welcome to the swimming pool. You help to make the point very nicely, actually: that you have such a preference nicely demonstrates that each of the options presents different expressive characteristics.

Thank you, Elgarian!

The quotation in question is written by a 14-year old character.  It is the culmination of a fulmination about dishonesty and hypocrisy in teenagers, who often complain about those same failings in adults!

[Karl Henning]

A matter of times, taste, and perspective, I should think. From one angle, Truth sobbing on a street corner is no more ridiculous (questions of absolutism aside) than Patience on a monument.

[dave b]

I did not know the character uttering that sentence is 14 years old---that makes all the difference in the world, and it is not ridiculous imagery, to a child---so I stand corrected. Age makes a lot of difference, as we all know.
Like Holden Caulfield, a young person has his or her way of saying things.

[dave b]