Cato's Grammar Grumble

[North Star]

"less well-versed"

A less badly written text would be a joy to read.

[Cato]

"less well-versed"

A less badly written text would be a joy to read.

Amen!

"SHOP LOCAL" is a campaign by the "local" Chamber of Commerce.  One also sees "BUY LOCAL" or "WE BUY LOCAL" at Sprawl-Mart.

Some people believe such signs should read:

[The Six]

"Buy locally" is kind of awkward. It's very terse and direct, and not very good for a campaign. It's better to just assume that a word like "products" is left out on the end. Buy local goods

[aquablob]

Or maybe "buy" is being used copulatively, and "local" modifies the subject.

"Buy in such a way that you are local!"



I jest, of course, but it's actually not always clear whether an adjective or an adverb should follow a verb/noun. For instance, does one hold a camera vertical or vertically when snapping a "tall" photo? Does one slice steak thin or thinly? Those examples come from a short but interesting discussion of the subject here: http://books.google.com/books?id=n0IJ8GcdJ6IC&pg=PA77 (it's worth reading pp. 77–79)

[aquablob]

Oh, and Happy St. Paddy's Day.

http://paddynotpatty.com/

[Cato]

Oh, and Happy St. Paddy's Day.

http://paddynotpatty.com/

Heh-heh! 

I have been noticing that some of my (less talented and slovenly) students are saying the word "Latin" as if they lived in Liverpool      i.e. "La' in" with no "T" whatsoever!

Others contract away the "i" i.e. "Latn" where one hears a quasi-nasalized "n" at the end.  The "T" is there, but just barely.

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

Does the overuse of the word "absolutely" drive anyone else as crazy as it does me?  I believe it should be used only in certain circumstances where enthusiasm or an overwhelming assertion of fact or agreement is intended to be conveyed.  Instead, it is now tendered so casually and often with little or no display of affect, it makes me suspicious of anyone who uses it.  I am absolutely weary of the word.  

[North Star]

Does the overuse of the word "absolutely" drive anyone else as crazy as it does me?  I believe it should be used only in certain circumstances where enthusiasm or an overwhelming assertion of fact or agreement is intended to be conveyed.  Instead, it is now tendered so casually and often with little or no display of affect, it makes me suspicious of anyone who uses it.  I am absolutely weary of the word.

Oh, most certainly.  0:)

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

Oh, most certainly.  0:)

I could live with that.  At least for a while as a pleasant change.  I'm not the only one to be annoyed, see:  http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/wayoflife/07/14/absolutely/index.html?_s=PM:LIVING

And it's spreading to other languages as well, esp. Italian assolutamente!, according to my sources.  Let's hope they are using it with a little more expression.

[Cato]

Does the overuse of the word "absolutely" drive anyone else as crazy as it does me?  I believe it should be used only in certain circumstances where enthusiasm or an overwhelming assertion of fact or agreement is intended to be conveyed.  Instead, it is now tendered so casually and often with little or no display of affect, it makes me suspicious of anyone who uses it.  I am absolutely weary of the word.

Yes!  It is ubiquitous on PBS cooking and home-improvement shows, especially those from the East Coast, and from the Canadian shows about buying houses or renting houses or fixing houses.

I do not intentionally watch these things, but my oldest son is hooked on them    , and so when he visits, we are inundated with "Absolutely!"

[aquablob]

It absolutely doesn't annoy me as much as two spaces after a period, you damn dirty typewriter nostalgics. I invited you all to the 21st century.

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html

[DavidW]

Whoops! I thought it was always two spaces. This will take me along to break that habit.

[kishnevi]

It absolutely doesn't annoy me as much as two spaces after a period, you damn dirty typewriter nostalgics. I invited you all to the 21st century.

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html

Two spaces after a period is a convention that was the rule of thumb for much of the twentieth century; it's a rule I learned when I first started to type forty years ago.   Like all conventions, it may be arbitrary, but the argument for abandoning it is equally arbitrary and based on nothing more than a bland good taste.  Moreover, it is not completely arbitrary, because a sentence is ideally one single complete thought, and double space after the period marks the end of the thought, while single spaces mark only the pauses we associate with commas, semi-colons, etc.   That is also the reason why a double space should come after a colon.  (A paragraph,  by the bye, is ideally a complete idea, which is why it should either start with an indentation or be followed by at least a single empty line.)

[aquablob]

Two spaces after a period is a convention that was the rule of thumb for much of the twentieth century; it's a rule I learned when I first started to type forty years ago.

That much I agree with.

Like all conventions, it may be arbitrary,

Still with you, although I wouldn't say that the two-space convention was entirely arbitrary for typists during much of the twentieth century (does . this . kind . of . thing . ring . a . bell?).

but the argument for abandoning it is equally arbitrary and based on nothing more than a bland good taste.

The argument for abandoning it is that typographers and publishers have stuck with the one-space convention for some time, and nobody's still using machines that make the discrepant two-space convention necessary. An appeal to authority, yes, but I'm not saying this is how it must be—I'm saying this is how it is.

I grant that it's arbitrary and really doesn't matter in most contexts (e.g., on an online forum  ). Yet I see no reason not to teach young people the industry standard now that monospace typewriters are a thing of the past. For the same reason, (American) students should be taught that a period or comma goes before a closing quotation mark, even when logic would suggest otherwise.

Moreover, it is not completely arbitrary, because a sentence is ideally one single complete thought, and double space after the period marks the end of the thought, while single spaces mark only the pauses we associate with commas, semi-colons, etc.   That is also the reason why a double space should come after a colon.

Typographers and publishers don't see it that way, and neither do I. It's the period that "marks the end of the thought." Similarly, the colon doesn't need an extra space to convey its meaning.

(A paragraph,  by the bye, is ideally a complete idea, which is why it should either start with an indentation or be followed by at least a single empty line.)

Can't argue with that!

[kishnevi]

Typographers and publishers don't see it that way, and neither do I. It's the period that "marks the end of the thought." Similarly, the colon doesn't need an extra space to convey its meaning.

Double space after the period is an important cue to the eye.   For a convenient example, look at your own post--to the eye it looks like a single sentence that doesn't end until the paragraph ends.

Re: quotation marks after end of sentence punctuation--what you said should be the correct practice is how I was taught to do it in school, unless logic dictated otherwise (meaning, usually, a phrase or short quote which was set off inside the sentence by quotation marks).

[aquablob]

Double space after the period is an important cue to the eye.   For a convenient example, look at your own post--to the eye it looks like a single sentence that doesn't end until the paragraph ends.

Maybe to your eye! But I think you're just "used to" the two-space convention. That said, do you have the same reaction when you pick up a book published within the last several decades? The one-space convention has been standard for a while now.

Re: quotation marks after end of sentence punctuation--what you said should be the correct practice is how I was taught to do it in school, unless logic dictated otherwise (meaning, usually, a phrase or short quote which was set off inside the sentence by quotation marks).

Well, again, all I can say is that American style guides, typographers, and publishers are virtually unanimous on this point—commas and periods come before the closing quotation mark, even where logic would dictate otherwise.

In any case, I'd like to clarify that I was only kidding around about being annoyed by two-spacers. And I certainly don't agree with the Slate author that two-spacing is "wrong." (But I wasn't kidding when I said that I think we should teach young people the industry standards.)

[Cato]

Maybe to your eye! But I think you're just "used to" the two-space convention. That said, do you have the same reaction when you pick up a book published within the last several decades? The one-space convention has been standard for a while now.

Well, again, all I can say is that American style guides, typographers, and publishers are virtually unanimous on this point—commas and periods come before the closing quotation mark, even where logic would dictate otherwise.

Then follow the logic!

e.g. 

Harry said: "That man is a schmuck!"

What makes better sense if quoted directly?

Did you know that Harry said: "That man is a schmuck?"

Did you know that Harry said: "That man is a schmuck!" ?

Did you know that Harry said: "That man is a schmuck!?"

Or just avoid the issue!   0:)  Did you know Harry thinks that man is a schmuck?

[aquablob]

Then follow the logic!

e.g. 

Harry said: "That man is a schmuck!"

What makes better sense if quoted directly?

Did you know that Harry said: "That man is a schmuck?"

Did you know that Harry said: "That man is a schmuck!" ?

Did you know that Harry said: "That man is a schmuck!?"

Or just avoid the issue!   0:)  Did you know Harry thinks that man is a schmuck?

I'll take "Harry thinks that man is a schmuck" for 2, Alex.

The convention is to follow the logic for all punctuation except for commas and periods, which come before the closing quotation mark regardless. Exclamation points, question marks, colons, semicolons, and interrobangs are handled according to logic.

The Chicago Manual of Style has a great example that yours reminded me of:

"Don't be absurd!" said Henry. "To say that 'I mean what I say' is the same as 'I say what I mean' is to be as confused as Alice at the Mad Hatter's tea party. You remember what the Hatter said to her: 'Not the same thing a bit! Why you might just as well say that "I see what I eat" is the same thing as "I eat what I see"!' "

[EigenUser]

Interesting thread. I can definitely sympathize with you here. At the same time I can't help but wonder if it is all part of the evolution of language that must be constantly taking place.

In any case, poor grammar can definitely be annoying. If anything, it shows a lack of care on the part of the speaker/writer.

[Karl Henning]

Whoops! I thought it was always two periods. This will take me along to break that habit.

Absolutely!