sensuous elements in music

[schweitzeralan]

The term is somehat unusual.  For years I've been listening to works by composers whose works evince an aesthtic quality that many reviewers, critics, and academicians  have identified a qualification known as "sensuous" in representative works. Details perhaps considerable technical musical theory demands. Several  composers have developed this particular aesthtic element, along with impressionistic nuances pervading  several works, many of which are favorites of mine. These include orchestral and pianistic works by Debussy, Wagner, Sir Arnold Bax, Rachmaninov, Ravel, Schmitt, John Ireland, Alexander Krein, Vaino Raitio, Joseph Marx, (some) Herbert Howells, Alexandrov, and to a certain extent even Sibelius' later works. Many compositions of this partcular aesthetic persuasion were develped during the early decades of the 20th century. Above all, I believe this characteristic is particularly notable in Scriabin's "later" period. Works like  "Vers la flamme," and the 6th and 9th sonatas are exemplary. Is there anyone who may be familiar with composers whose works may suggest this senuous quality other than those mentioned?  Just curious.

[Novi]

I don't have knowledge of the underlying technical musical theory you mention, but I find Szymanowski's work very lush and sensuous.

[schweitzeralan]

I don't have knowledge of the underlying technical musical theory you mention, but I find Szymanowski's work very lush and sensuous.

Yes.  I'm quite familiar with his work.  His 2nd and 3rd symphonies are superb, as well works that were influenced by  Debussy and by other French impressionists.  Such influences are noticeable in the piano works "Masques," "Metopes," and "Myths."  His later works are quite complex; years ago I wold have been quite accepting of dissident, polytonal harmonies typical of mid 20th century modernism. Szymamowski's later works are more modernist; brilliant to be sure, but I guess in my later years I've come to love those lush, atmospheric, mystical amost with varying modes of orchestral or pianistic color depth.  Strictly personal and doesn't rule out my acceptance or enjoyment of works that do not necessarily  display "sensuosity, or nuanced musical language.  An interesting point is a comparison of Scriabin's "Mysterium" with Havergil (Sp?) Brian's Gothic Symphony. The one is sensual, transcendental; Brian's is also quite mystical if not cosmic.  His language is much more bitonal and dissonent. I much prefer the Scriabin/Nemtin cosmic configuration.

[DavidRoss]

For me the first two symphonies of Sibelius seem more sensuous than the later ones, and so with the tone poems as well.  The Lemminkäinen Legends, especially the Maidens of Saari section, strike me as damned near voluptuous.  I certainly agree about Bax and Rachmaninoff and Scriabin, to a lesser extent about Debussy and Wagner and Ravel, and have but little or no familiarity with the others you named.  Others who came quickly to mind as composers of particularly sensuous music include Granville Bantock, Charles Griffes, and Edward McDowell...and let's not forget Mahler and Korngold...and what of Rimsky-Korsakov and Khachaturian and Stravinsky when he felt like it?

[rappy]

How can Richard Strauss not be the first name to mention when talking about sensuousness 

(listen to the last 10 minutes of Eine Alpensinfonie (Kempe) or the first section of Ein Heldenleben (Karajan '59) to get an impression)

[DavidRoss]

How can Richard Strauss not be the first name to mention when talking about sensuousness 

(listen to the last 10 minutes of Eine Alpensinfonie (Kempe) or the first section of Ein Heldenleben (Karajan '59) to get an impression)

And the trio in Rosenkavalier!

[schweitzeralan]

For me the first two symphonies of Sibelius more sensuousness than the later ones, and so with the tone poems as well.  The Lemminkäinen Legends, especially the Maidens of Saari section, strike me as damned near voluptuous.  I certainly agree about Bax and Rachmaninoff and Scriabin, to a lesser extent about Debussy and Wagner and Ravel, and have but little or no familiarity with the others you named.  Others who came quickly to mind as composers of particularly sensuous music include Granville Bantock, Charles Griffes, and Edward McDowell...and let's not forget Mahler and Korngold...and what of Rimsky-Korsakov and Khachaturian and Stravinsky when he felt like it?

I think there is indeed a sensuous quality in several of Sibelius' works.  Definitely in Griffes.  I also omitted Rhesphigi.  I know of Bantock; that he was a significant composer during the early decades of the past century; however, I'm not all that familiar with his music. Mahler is a titan, and his symphonies reach all bases in the aesthetic lexicon; rhythmically; melodically; harmonically; and, yes, to a large extent, sensuous. Khachaturian and Rimsky-Korsakov's works tend to be colorful and lush in several of their works. "Sensuosity" in Stravinsky? Perhaps some sensuous elements in his " Firebird"; perhaps also in his "Symphony in Three Movements". There is a Debussyism in one of the movements, if I recall correctly.  It's been a while since I've listened to it.There is a possibility in  "The Nightengale." Again it's been some time since I've heard it. I like McDowell; quite romantic.  I sense some Grieg influence in his Piano Concerto.  He was a prolific composer, but, unfortunately, I can't admit to any sense of the luxurious in his significant contributions, as I am unfamiliar with them.  I only know his Concerto. As you stated, these qualities may be lurking several of his orchestral and piano compositions.  I'm always on the lookout for music of this persuasion that smacks of the sensuous, the lush aspect, the complex but "advanced" tonality, to quote one critic.  There is that quality in Takimitsu as  Impressionism hovers throughout  many works.  Interesting.  Much french influence, but his music propends toward the bitonal, polytonal (?),  Although I have appreciated modernistic, even some avant-garde musical works in the past, I now, for some unknown reason, tend to prefer the musical language of Debussy, Raitio, Merikkanto, Sibelius, Marx, and a few others. Just a personal thing in my case. 

[snyprrr]

Berg?

i remember merikanto....

[Bulldog]

Sensuality is a major element of most of Zemlinsky's music.  Schoenberg considered him sexually decadent.

[Mark G. Simon]

The slow movement of Scriabin's Symphony no. 3 has the subtitle "sensous pleasures" (meaning sex).

[schweitzeralan]

The slow movement of Scriabin's Symphony no. 3 has the subtitle "sensous pleasures" (meaning sex).

Scriabin apparently thought that music played, or assumed in certain examples I guess, those feelings, images, thoughts, identities with sex and music.  For him and probably for others the two go together.  I admit my own love of the sensuous and exotic, lush harmonies in representative works of several composers, but  I personally have an adverse feeling about music and the erotic.  Scriabin may or may have not been alone in this assessment.  For me the sensuous in music comes quite close to a romantic prehension; beauty and music exist for their own sake, and there is never any erotic connotations or identities on my part.  Sex is important for all the obvious reasons, but for me, comparing it to the sublmity of, let's say, the 6th Sonata of Scriabin, just to name one very sensuous piece, the very thought of a sexual act becomes  repugnent, even vulgar. I don't mean to be a prude about all this, it's just my personal judgement.  Others (like Scriabin?) might disagree.  It's an interesting theme, and scholars, crtics, and music enthusiasts may be interested; but I tend to leave it alone.

[Bulldog]

For me the sensuous in music comes quite close to a romantic prehension; beauty and music exist for their own sake, and there is never any erotic connotations or identities on my part.  Sex is important for all the obvious reasons, but for me, comparing it to the sublmity of, let's say, the 6th Sonata of Scriabin, just to name one very sensuous piece, the very thought of a sexual act becomes  repugnent, even vulgar.

That's an unusual reaction; I'm glad it's not mine.

[Ten thumbs]

The point of Scriabin's later works was the struggle to rise above the sensuous and reach the spiritual. These two, which ought to be opposites, seem often to be confused. Perhaps it is because neither appeals directly to the intellect, even though Scriabin's music remains rooted in intellect.
The sensuous includes the sensual but covers anything that is directed at the senses. For that reason if I want something that is a pleasure but does not greatly engage my brain (or my thumbs for that matter), I get out my Kuhlau sonatinas.

[sul G]

Sex is important for all the obvious reasons, but for me, comparing it to the sublmity of, let's say, the 6th Sonata of Scriabin, just to name one very sensuous piece, the very thought of a sexual act becomes  repugnent, even vulgar.

That's an unusual reaction; I'm glad it's not mine.

Scriabin was scared of his 6th sonata and never played it in public. I'm not sure what connection, if any, this has to his sex life.... 

[schweitzeralan]

Scriabin was scared of his 6th sonata and never played it in public. I'm not sure what connection, if any, this has to his sex life.... 

It's possible that Scriabin may have thought it to be too diabolical, too "Satanesque," perhaps.  I believe it to be quite volutuous, and, yes, even romantic.  It's quite an original piece.  I also believe that Scriabin suggested erotic sensibilities in some of his later works.  His mystical, transcendental, other worldly persuasions are a notable force in S. as well as any physical impulses.

[EigenUser]

At my university we played Strauss' "Dance of the Seven Veils" from "Salome". For one particular melody, our conductor asked us violins to play "more sleazy, please!"

[some guy]

Odd this.

It's like asking for music that vibrates.

[amw]

Odd this.

It's like asking for music that vibrates.

Hey, that is really important for people to know. Because... reasons.

[jochanaan]

It's almost impossible to get away from the "sensuous elements" in music.  For the more specifically erotic, though, there are a few works that stand out:
Wagner: Tristan and Isolde, especially the Prelude and Liebestod
Debussy: Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun
R. Strauss: Salome, esp. Dance of the Seven Veils
Scriabin: Poem of Ecstasy
Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring
Ravel: Bolero
Varese: Nocturnal
And others that some of the other folk here can name.

Scriabin is a special case, though.  For him, it would seem there was little difference between creative ecstasy, erotic ecstasy, and spiritual enlightenment; he was perhaps rather Tantric in that way.