Gurn's Classical Corner

[Wanderer]

*censored pic*

It is for crimes like these I regret the abolition of capital punishment.   

[Dr. Dread]

What? He's got his clothes on.

[Gurn Blanston]

What? He's got his clothes on.

That's really you, isn't it Dave? The Prince of Minnesota?  Don't have me come over there...

[Dr. Dread]

Don't have me come over there...

[DavidW]

I've been listening to some of Boccherini's sinfonias and cello concertos recently.  And I am struck by how Vivaldi inspired some of his music sounds, despite being classical.  He has a very exuberant Italian style that you just don't hear in the big three.

I looked over this thread and saw that a poster by the name of sul G passionately recommended his Stabat Mater, so I might give that a try down the road.

Any one else listening to classical Italian?

[SonicMan46]

I've been listening to some of Boccherini's sinfonias and cello concertos recently.............

Any one else listening to classical Italian?

David - I guess the issue is how to define 'classical Italian' composers, i.e. the time period - most think of the Baroque composers; and of course there are plenty of these Italian 'transitional' guys (i.e. born in the late 17th & early 18th centuries); but just looking over this LONG list from different periods HERE on WIKI, some that come to mind (and many that I own) may apply - meaning composers born in the earlier part of the 18th century or later - there are many to explore, some of which are listed below:

Giuseppe Tartini (1692–1770)
Pietro Locatelli (1695–1764)
Giuseppe Sammartini (1695–1750) & Giovanni Battista Sammartini (c.1700–1775)
Baldassare Galuppi (1706–1785)
Anna Bon (1740–?) (yes, I own some of her compositions!)
Domenico Cimarosa (1749–1801) (not sure about this guy - don't own any of his works?)
Antonio Salieri (1750 - 1825) (well known, of course; but you know, I have NONE of his works on CD?  Should I?)
Muzio Clementi (1752 - 1832) (own a lot of Muzio; of course, his piano works are best known)
Giovanni Viotti (1755 – 1824) (violin works the most famous)
Luigi Cherubini (1760 - 1842)
Mauro Giuliani (1781 - 1829) (own a LOT of his guitar works!)
Niccolò Paganini (1782 - 1840) (no description needed)

Well, I'm sure many might have other favorites, but except for a few above, I own CDs of most of these 'classical' era composers - plenty to explore, if interested - Dave  

[DavidW]

Dave, I like Clementi, I totally forgot about him.

Oh yes I remember now you mentioning the Giulini guitar works recently, HIP guitars and all.

[Gurn Blanston]

David - I guess the issue is how to define 'classical Italian' composers, i.e. the time period - most think of the Baroque composers; and of course there are plenty of these Italian 'transitional' guys (i.e. born in the late 17th & early 18th centuries); but just looking over this LONG list from different periods HERE on WIKI, some that come to mind (and many that I own) may apply - meaning composers born in the earlier part of the 18th century or later - there are many to explore, some of which are listed below:

Giuseppe Tartini (1692–1770)
Pietro Locatelli (1695–1764)
Giuseppe Sammartini (1695–1750) & Giovanni Battista Sammartini (c.1700–1775)
Baldassare Galuppi (1706–1785)
Anna Bon (1740–?) (yes, I own some of her compositions!)
Domenico Cimarosa (1749–1801) (not sure about this guy - don't own any of his works?)
Antonio Salieri (1750 - 1825) (well known, of course; but you know, I have NONE of his works on CD?  Should I?)
Muzio Clementi (1752 - 1832) (own a lot of Muzio; of course, his piano works are best known)
Giovanni Viotti (1755 – 1824) (violin works the most famous)
Luigi Cherubini (1760 - 1842)
Mauro Giuliani (1781 - 1829) (own a LOT of his guitar works!)
Niccolò Paganini (1782 - 1840) (no description needed)

Well, I'm sure many might hav other favorites, but except for a few above, I own CDs of most of these 'classical' era composers - plenty to exploare, if interested - Dave 

That's a nice list, Dave.

First let me say that I have no doubt that David hears Vivaldi's influence on Boccherini. Vivaldi was well-known in Italy, not obscure at all, even among the many faces of Italian Late Baroque. Maybe someone who actually knows something could comment here on this that I heard several years ago in a documentary film about Vivaldi (wish I had a copy). The writer insisted several times that Vivaldi's music was a direct ancestor of Classicism. That it bore little resemblance to Baroque at all. He didn't go on far along that line, but repeated it a few times. I took it to mean that Vivaldi was pursuing the line of homophonic music that began with Italian sinfonias and opera overtures rather than the polyphony that was still commonplace in Germany and elsewhere. I think that this led to galant music, which was a direct antecedent of Classical style. It is also possible that such early pre-classicists as Jomelli and Sammartini were directly influenced by Vivaldi's style, but I don't know this for a fact, it is merely a surmise.

Here's a little I know about them:

Giuseppe Tartini (1692–1770) - Excellent sonatas and concertos for violin. Pre-Classical in my estimation. Used some archaic forms but modern in other ways, particularly violin technique.

Pietro Locatelli (1695–1764) - I think he is a little less advanced stylistically than Tartini. Still wrote concerti grossi while Tartini wrote solo concerti. Very nice music.

Giuseppe Sammartini (1695–1750) & Giovanni Battista Sammartini (c.1700–1775) - Probably the true 'Father of the Symphony'. Although Haydn denied it (probably for nationalistic reasons) his contemporaries claimed that his symphony style was based more on Sammartini than anyone else, including Stamitz.

Baldassare Galuppi (1706–1785) - Only a name to me. Sorry   

Anna Bon (1740–?) (yes, I own some of her compositions!) Ditto.

Domenico Cimarosa (1749–1801) (not sure about this guy - don't own any of his works?) - I have a modest amount of Cimarosa. He was mainly an opera composer, but he wrote many concerti. Good composer. He worked away from italy most of his adult life, first in Russia and then in Vienna.

Antonio Salieri (1750 - 1825) (well known, of course; but you know, I have NONE of his works on CD?  Should I?) - Yes, you should at least have a try with him. His operas are very good (not Mozart, but very good anyway), and his concerti are par for the times.

Muzio Clementi (1752 - 1832) (own a lot of Muzio; of course, his piano works are best known) - Brilliant.

Giovanni Viotti (1755 – 1824) (violin works the most famous) - Also brilliant.

Luigi Cherubini (1760 - 1842) - The best of the group. A real musician. Even though he ended up in Paris, we can't hold that against him. Beethoven considered him one of the very few composers worth listening to, other than himself.

Mauro Giuliani (1781 - 1829) (own a LOT of his guitar works!) - Have none of his music yet, aim to correct it.

Niccolò Paganini (1782 - 1840) (no description needed) - One of a kind. Carried on the great tradition of Nardini, Tartini and the other great Italian fiddlers, to new heights.

I would add;
Giornovicchi, Giovanni Mane (1735-1804) - Spent at least a good part of his career in London where he was very popular and influential. He was there when Haydn visited in the early 1790's. He was close friends with such famous classicists as Dussek and Clementi. Mainly wrote violin concertos, good ones too!



----------------
Listening to:
Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein - Hob 03 11 Divertimento in D for String Quartet 2nd mvmt - Menuetto - Trio

[Gurn Blanston]

I've been listening to some of Boccherini's sinfonias and cello concertos recently.  And I am struck by how Vivaldi inspired some of his music sounds, despite being classical.  He has a very exuberant Italian style that you just don't hear in the big three.

I looked over this thread and saw that a poster by the name of sul G passionately recommended his Stabat Mater, so I might give that a try down the road.

Any one else listening to classical Italian?

Oh, Sul G is actually our brilliant friend, Luke Ottevanger, whom I miss badly.



----------------
Listening to:
Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein - Hob 03 12 Divertimento in Bb for String Quartet 3rd mvmt - Adagio

[karlhenning]

So do we all, Gurnatron; so do we all.

[Gabriel]

A most excellent list, Dave and Gurn. I would add:

Niccolò Jommelli (1714-1774). Good composer, important for understanding the development of opera during the classical period. There is a good recording of Armida Abbandonata (1750) led by Christophe Rousset.

Giovanni Paisiello (1740-1816). I really don't know what to think about him. In general, I think he's not very consistent (perhaps he composed too many works), but I agree that some of his music is as inspired as it could be.

On the recommendations made by Gurn to Dave, I'd say the most urgent would be to get a copy of Cimarosa's Il matrimonio segreto, and then to try some Salieri (perhaps Thomas Fey's CD of overtures and ballets from the operas).

And, naturally, get as much Cherubini as you can!

[karlhenning]

Niccolò Jommelli (1714-1774). Good composer, important for understanding the development of opera during the classical period. There is a good recording of Armida Abbandonata (1750) led by Christophe Rousset.

I'd never heard of him before I worked with Marita McClymonds in Charlottesville.

[Gurn Blanston]

I'd never heard of him before I worked with Marita McClymonds in Charlottesville.

Jomelli  has a major innovation to his credit; as music director in Mannheim, he introduced dynamics into the orchestra. All the hoo-rah about the famous Mannheim Orchestra is directly attributable to him and Johann Stamitz (who introduced the concept of members of the orchestra playing in time with each other.... ).

[Florestan]

Now playing Ignaz Holzbauer's Quintet in G major no.1 for fortepiano, flute, violin, viola and cello performed by Camerata Koeln --- and guess what? I enjoy how the fortepiano sounds.  0:)

[karlhenning]

. . . Johann Stamitz (who introduced the concept of members of the orchestra playing in time with each other.... )

An idea which to this day finds staunch resistance in Germany  

[SonicMan46]

Baldassare Galuppi (1706–1785) - Only a name to me. Sorry    

Antonio Salieri (1750 - 1825) (well known, of course; but you know, I have NONE of his works on CD?  Should I?) - Yes, you should at least have a try with him. His operas are very good (not Mozart, but very good anyway), and his concerti are par for the times.

I would add;
Giornovicchi, Giovanni Mane (1735-1804) - Spent at least a good part of his career in London where he was very popular and influential. He was there when Haydn visited in the early 1790's. He was close friends with such famous classicists as Dussek and Clementi. Mainly wrote violin concertos, good ones too!

Thanks guys for the comments & additional recommendations - I believe that Salieri should be added to my collection - just have been avoiding him?  

Cherubini - if interested in some instrumental works by this composer, then give the String Quartets a try! 

Giornovicchi - have nothing by this individual, but do enjoy the 'continental' types who ended up in London and seemed to acquired an 'international flair' to their composing!

Galuppi - own the 3 discs shown below, all worth a listen - Dave 

   

[Gurn Blanston]

Now playing Ignaz Holzbauer's Quintet in G major no.1 for fortepiano, flute, violin, viola and cello performed by Camerata Koeln --- and guess what? I enjoy how the fortepiano sounds.  0:)

Bless you.  0:)

I have mentioned somewhere here, in one of my impassioned defenses of the fortepiano ( ), that it is at its best in chamber music. In fact, I say without hesitation that in this particular genre, it is superior to the modern piano due to its smaller and more controllable sostenuto. That sounds like an interesting disk. I like Holzbauer's orchestral music...

[Gurn Blanston]

An idea which to this day finds staunch resistance in Germany  

You're not going to sucker me into that discussion, Dr. H.   I did set you up nicely for it though...

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks guys for the comments & additional recommendations - I believe that Salieri should be added to my collection - just have been avoiding him?  

Cherubini - if interested in some instrumental works by this composer, then give the String Quartets a try! 

Giornovicchi - have nothing by this individual, but do enjoy the 'continental' types who ended up in London and seemed to acquired an 'international flair' to their composing!

Galuppi - own the 3 discs shown below, all worth a listen - Dave 

   

Dave,
Yes, Cherubini's SQ's are a very worthwhile start to exploring his music. I have 2 cycles, both good: Hausmusik on Virgin and Quartetto David on BIS. Hausmusik has the advantage of PI, but QD are very good.

Arte Nova (I think, should have looked before leaving the house this AM) put out 2 or 3 disks of Giornovicchi's concerti, of which I have 1, which I got at BRO 2 years ago. They are similar in style to Viotti, perhaps a bit more on the lively side. Not bad at all, plus they fill in an apparent gap in the repertoire where VC's were thin on the ground; namely the 1790's. Not sure why they temporarily went out of fashion, but other than Viotti and Spohr, you won't find a whole lot from that period.

That Galuppi looks interesting. Have to make an effort (after the Haydn Project is put to bed! What a money pit! )

[Florestan]

I have mentioned somewhere here, in one of my impassioned defenses of the fortepiano ( ), that it is at its best in chamber music.

I'll try some more then.

That sounds like an interesting disk. I like Holzbauer's orchestral music...

I've never heard anything by him until today.

This is the disk:



Ignaz Holzbauer (1711 - 1783)

Chamber Works

Quintet in B flat major No. 2 for fortepiano, flute, violin, viola and violoncello
Sinfonia à 3 in G major for two violins and B.c.
Divertimento à 3 in D major for flute, violin, double bass and guitar
Quintet in G major No. 1 for fortepiano, flute, violin, viola and violoncello

CAMERATA KÖLN
Sabine Bauer, Fortepiano / Harpsichord
Karl Kaiser, Transverse flute
Sabine Lier / Ingeborg Scheerer, Violin
Rainer Zipperling, Violoncello / Violone
Yasunori Imamura, Baroque Guitar

Listen here.