Gurn's Classical Corner

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks!  I have tended to have the same experience with my other musical reads -- at this point it's been more theoretical than historical, so I'll keep pushing through to the stuff I can handle.  :-) 

It seems like Rosen takes the approach that Hayden, Mozart, and Beethoven are the be-all-end-all of this style and I find it almost insulting for these other "minor composers" that he mentions.  You still enjoy others beyond those three right?  :-)   

Well, the option for me would have been to go take a degree so I could wade through some of these texts. Seems unlikely somehow...

Well, you know, there really can be little dispute that in terms of quality of music, innovation, originality; whatever term you want to use to define greatness of music, that those 3 were the tops. And stylistically they were very influential on their peers and followers. Now, does that make them the only composers worth listening to or talking about? Certainly not for me. Something I've learned in my years of being on forums like this is that a great many people will only listen to what they feel are the greatest works of the greatest masters. I guess nothing less should sully their ears, I don't know...   Anyway, for me, this is a crock. I listen to what I like, and I recommend that you do the same. If you spend all your time comparing things, it doesn't leave much room to simply enjoy them.  So just do that, and you will hear lots of things that are pretty fine. And some things that aren't. But at least you will have discovered them for yourself, and not relied on someone else to say "that sucks, don't bother...".

[monafam]

Thanks again.  I think I have fallen into the somewhat opposite practice of avoiding the classics/masters (for lack of better terms), because "they will always be around."  It really is about finding what I enjoy -- even if it isn't Mozart, or even if it is <<fill in lesser composer here>>  .

[Gabriel]

I am going to apologize in advance that I was too lazy to perform any searches of this particular issue (I figured this was the thread to post the question on), so it may have been spoke of at great length.

I recently checked out "The Classical Style" by Charles Rosen and I am having some trouble making my way through the book.  I'm only about 37 pages through, but I still feel lost.

Any suggestions on how to read this?  Is this the great book it's hyped to be (on the book jacket at any rate), or is it more suited for those with a deeper musical background than I apparently have?

Thanks in advance for any help!

It is certainly a deep book. I bought it about 20 years ago, and even if at first sight I knew it would be difficult to understand, I told myself that with the passing of time I would understand more. That was what happened, and I'm sure it is difficult to find a most interesting book than this one concerning the classical era. So I can just advice you to read the parts that are interesting to you, and skip the other ones. Try reading other, easier books about music. With patience, you will realize that you will be slowly able to understand more from this book. (Not being a professional musician myself, I guess there will always be parts that I will not understand, but I assure you that I understand a lot more than when I read it for the first time).

Changing the subject, I came across a double CD released in 1990 containing music from French classicism. The main content is Pleyel's church music (a Requiem and a Tantum ergo, available in a more recent release, but in a single CD); but it also contains an Ecce panis by Cherubini; a cantata by Desaugiers (1742-1793), a composer I had never heard about; the overture to Dalayrac's Nina (I'm not aware of any other recording of Dalayrac's operatic production); a symphony by Gossec; the overture to Kreutzer's Paul et Virginie (yes, it's the same Kreutzer of the Beethoven sonata); and the overture to Méhul's Le Jeune Henri.

I listened during the afternoon the three overtures, with different results. The overture to Dalayrac's opera has got good music, but the performance is not precisely inspired; it drains out most of the energy that the music seems to be desperately asking for. The overture by Kreutzer is beautifully scored and has an introduction of remarkable pastoral mood. The overture by Méhul, which I knew in two other versions, was on the other hand a complete surprise: I'd need a better musical equipment than the one I have in Paris to judge the recording quality, but the performance is the most intelligent of the three I know. For a masterpiece as this overture, it's a great joy to have a version that fully expresses the depiction potential of the score.

[SonicMan46]

It's a bitch, isn't it?

Not being a musician myself, and still wishing to squeeze the juice out of that orange, the three times I read it, I merely looked at the musical examples and read what Rosen said about them, and took his word for it that they did what he said. For me, the meat of the book is the history aspect, and that's what I took from it. There's a lot of good info in there, if you don't allow the musical examples and arguments to overwhelm you.

Well, I agree completely w/ the statement from Gurn bolded above - being not as persistent, I've tried to go through this Rosen book twice w/ similar results; I'm not a musician but can 'pick out' tunes on a piano from a music sheet (from my accordion playing days), but I ended up skipping much of the really 'technical' aspects and explanations; don't plan to really return and attempt another read, just too many other musical books available that I've enjoyed over the years. 

I believe that to really understand and obtain the most out of this book would require some musical education/training and an innate musical acumen; I often 'struggle' in more standard biographical books when musical pages are printed and explanations provided - usually just 'skip over' those areas, and would likely need to be sitting on our piano bench w/ a pianist who could play & explain what is being discussed in the book.

However, I'd be quite curious in some of the thoughts and opinions of our 'professional' musicians, composers, etc. on this topic - 

[monafam]

Thanks again for the responses!  At least I'm not the only one who has had some trouble!

[Gurn Blanston]

My current listening, digging out some old Beck CD's, has reminded me of what good composer he was. Compared to his contemporaries, he was ahead of his time in many ways, which is to say, his music sounds as though it was written 30 years or more later than it actually was!

This, stolen from Naxos' website:
BECK, FRANZ IGNAZ  (1734 - 1809)

Franz Ignaz Beck began violin studies with his father, Johann Aloys Beck, an oboist and Rektor of the Choir School at the Palatinate Court in Mannheim. He also learned double bass and organ, among other instruments, and eventually came under the tutelage of Johann Stamitz, the Director of Instrumental Music and leader of the brilliant Mannheim court orchestra. Beck's talents were quickly recognized and the Elector Carl Theodor undertook responsibility for his education.

Although some sources maintain that Beck left Mannheim to study composition with Galuppi in Venice, his pupil Blanchard wrote a more colorful account in which he claimed that Beck, a court favourite, fled the Palatinate after believing that he had killed his opponent (a jealous rival) in a duel only to learn many years later while living in Paris that he was the victim of a cruel hoax; his opponent had only feigned death. Whatever the circumstances of his departure, Beck certainly did live in Venice for several years for it was from there that he eloped to Naples with Anna Oniga, his employer's daughter. After his eventful sojourn in Italy in the 1750s Beck moved to Marseilles and became leader of a theatre orchestra. The date of his arrival in France is uncertain but he must have been well-known by reputation at least as more than twenty of his symphonies were published in rapid succession by Parisian firms beginning in the late 1750s. The title page of the six Op.1 symphonies describe him as 'Chamber Virtuoso to the Elector Palatine and pupil of Johann Stamitz'; the Op.3 title page adds 'and actually first violin of the Concert in Marseilles'. At least seven performances of Beck's symphonies are known to have been given in Marseilles in 1760-61.

Beck moved from Marseilles to Bordeaux where he continued his interest in the theatre, subsequently being appointed conductor of the Grand Theatre. His duties at the theatre were combined with composing and teaching. Among his more prominent pupils were Pierre Gaveaux, Blanchard and Boscha. On 24 October 1774 he was appointed organist at St Seurin, Bordeaux, and his exceptional improvisatory powers won him great admiration from the congregation. Beck's fame, however, was not restricted to Bordeaux. Several sets of his keyboard works were published in Paris and Dresden; he travelled to Paris to attend the first performance of his remarkable Stabat mater at Versailles and his overture and incidental music to Pandore were performed at the Theatre de Monsieur in 1789. Beck appears to have had little difficulty adjusting to the revolutionary climate; he wrote patriotic music during the Revolution, including a Hymn á l'être suprême and in 1803 the new government expressed its approval by naming him correspondent of music composition for the Institute of France.

The pioneering research of Hugo Riemann and Robert Sondheimer in the early Twentieth Century focused new attention on Beck's symphonies, most of which date from early in his career (ca 1757-66). More recently, Barry S Brook has praised Beck's symphonies as being 'among the most original and striking of the pre-Classical period'. Among the most progressive traits in his later works are the regular use of wind instruments in slow movements and an increasing emphasis on thematic development. His taut, dramatic style is also remarkable for its employment of bold harmonic progressions, flexible rhythms and highly independent part writing.

Allan Badley

IMO, his symphonies are a big step forward from J. Stamitz', his teacher. I personally enjoy them to a greater degree than even Vanhal's. Here are a few disks to consider:



I enjoy all of these, there are a few more out there that I haven't sampled yet. And a Stabat Mater that is priced through the roof, but which I've read about (in a book on Haydn) as being very nice indeed. Anyway, a very commendable composer, and worth looking into. 





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Listening to:
La Stagione Frankfurt / Michael Schneider - Beck Op 04 #1 Sinfonia in D 4th mvmt - Presto assai

[SonicMan46]

My current listening, digging out some old Beck CD's, has reminded me of what good composer he was. Compared to his contemporaries, he was ahead of his time in many ways, which is to say, his music sounds as though it was written 30 years or more later than it actually was! ......................

 

Gurn - yet another 'lost' composer of excellence!    I have 4 discs of Beck's Symphonies shown above, 3 identical to the ones you own - don't 'yet' have those Op. 1 works, but added a CPO of Op. 3 (Nos. 3-5) - love the CPO cover art.

Need to explore this composer more - just have these orchestral works - other options?  Dave 

[Lethevich]

Gurn - random question, what do you think of Locatelli? I expected a quite ornate late baroque composer when I listened (perhaps along the lines of Vivaldi), but what I got was something rather stripped back, and with extended galant style movements throughout (at least in his violin concertos). Would you class any of his work as early classical, or is it just a quirky transitional style?

[Leo K.]

Beck was a surprise for me as well...and while listening to this Naxo's disk:




I heard how great Gossec was too. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn - random question, what do you think of Locatelli? I expected a quite ornate late baroque composer when I listened (perhaps along the lines of Vivaldi), but what I got was something rather stripped back, and with extended galant style movements throughout (at least in his violin concertos). Would you class any of his work as early classical, or is it just a quirky transitional style?

Sara,
Well, I haven't heard all of his stuff, so it's hard to generalize that 'any'... But this post spurred me to relisten to Op 1, obviously early work, and equally obviously totally Baroque. But one or two of the concerti that I've heard from Op 3 leaned more heavily on homophony, and it wouldn't be any sort of stretch to class them as pre-Classical, at least being based on being a precursor to galant music. Of course, I am already on record as believing that a large chunk of Vivaldi falls in that category too...

[Gurn Blanston]

Beck was a surprise for me as well...and while listening to this Naxo's disk:




I heard how great Gossec was too.

Well, I am less enthusiastic about Gossec than I am about Beck, but in that regard I am totally at odds with their contemporaries, who thought the sun shone particularly brightly on Mssr. Gossec.  Of course, Beck is purely a Mannheimer in style while Gossec is less so, and that may be the attraction for me, since that style is particularly to my taste.

[Leo K.]

Well, I am less enthusiastic about Gossec than I am about Beck, but in that regard I am totally at odds with their contemporaries, who thought the sun shone particularly brightly on Mssr. Gossec.  Of course, Beck is purely a Mannheimer in style while Gossec is less so, and that may be the attraction for me, since that style is particularly to my taste.

As much as I enjoyed hearing Gossec's Symphonies for the first time, I have a feeling I'll really be blown away by his Requiem...I've got to remember to get that one of these days or just download from iTunes if they got it!

[Gabriel]

As much as I enjoyed hearing Gossec's Symphonies for the first time, I have a feeling I'll really be blown away by his Requiem...I've got to remember to get that one of these days or just download from iTunes if they got it!

Just like Gurn, I am not particularly fond of the symphonies by Gossec I have heard, but his Requiem has some remarkable moments.

[SonicMan46]

Boccherini, Luigi (1743-1805) - Cello Sonatas w/ Luigi Puxeddu et al; 4-CD set on a bargain Brilliant Box (discs listed below w/ the Yves Gerard, i.e. G numbers and dates of composition); these were composed when Luigi was in his 20s, and many while a traveling virtuoso cellist  and composer.

The compositions are listed as Cello Solos w/ Basso Continuo, which was mainly w/ a second cello (likely a son & father performance early, or w/ others later?); in these performances, a second cello is used in the base line w/ a violin or viola substituted in several of the works.

My only comparison is a single disc w/ a favorite, Anner Bylsma as the 'solo' cellist, along w/ Kenneth Slowik on the other cello and Bob van Asperen on a fortepiano; not sure the latter is appropriate in the 'early works', but is not used in most of the performances on this disc (but does sound fine!).

Preference?  Not sure after just one listening to the Brilliant set - Bylsma seems more animated, but Puxeddu has a fine melodious and legato line to his cello playing (and the sound is superb, i.e. 2007-08 recordings); this is a fine set for easy listening and the cellos sound just great together - a recommendation at the Brilliant price!

 


Boccherini - Cello Sonatas - Puxeddu

CD 1 -  G3 (Sonata C) c. 1766 (bc w/ cello)
         G2 (Sonata Cm) c. 1768 (bc w/ violin)
         G1 (Sonata F) c. 1768 (bc w/ cello)
         G4 (Sonata A) c. 1773 (bc w/ cello)
         G5 (Sonata G) c. 1763 (bc w/ cello)
         G4b(Sonata A) c. 1773 (bc w/ cello)
         G2b(Sonata C) c. 1768 (bc w/ cello)

CD 2 -   G6 (Sonata C) c. 1768 (bc w/ cello)
           G7 (Sonata C) c. 1767 (bc w/ cello)
           G8 (Sonata Bf) c. 1767 (bc w /cello)
           G9 (Sonata F) c. 1764 (bc w/ cello)
           G10(Sonata Ef) c. 1764 (bc w /cello)   
           G11(Sonata Ef) c. 1766 (bc w/ cello)

CD 3 -   G12(Sonata Bf) c. 1766 (bc w /cello)
           G13(Sonata A) c. 1766 (bc w/ cello)
           G14(Sonata Ef) c. 1767 (bc w/ cello)
           G15(Sonata G) c. 1768 (bc w /cello)
           G16(Sonata Ef) c. 1764 (bc w /cello)
           G17(Sonata C) c. 1772 (bc w/ cello)
           G18(Sonata Cm) c. 1767 (bc w/ viola)

CD 4 -    G565 (Sonata Bf) c. ? (bc w/ cello)
           G565b(Sonata Bf) c. ? (bc w/ cello)
           G566 (Sonata Ef) c. ? (bc w/ cello)
           G?   (Sonata Ef) c. ? (bc w/ cello)
           G?   (Sonata G) c. ? (bc w/ cello)
               G?   (Sonata A) c. ? (bc w/ cello)

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks for bringing that to our attention, Dave. I also have the single disk by Bylsma/Slowik/Asperen, and also one that came in that Capriccio box, although OTTOMH I can't remember the players on it. Also quite nice. You have that box, IIRC, so you have it too. I'll have to scoop this up.



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Listening to:
Trio 1790 - Hob XV:19 Trio in Bb  for Piano & Strings 3rd mvmt - Presto

[Antoine Marchand]

Boccherini, Luigi (1743-1805) - Cello Sonatas w/ Luigi Puxeddu et al...

 
Boccherini - Cello Sonatas - Puxeddu

Period or modern instruments, Dave?

[SonicMan46]

Thanks for bringing that to our attention, Dave. I also have the single disk by Bylsma/Slowik/Asperen, and also one that came in that Capriccio box, although OTTOMH I can't remember the players on it. Also quite nice. You have that box, IIRC, so you have it too. I'll have to scoop this up.

Good evening Gurn - yes, I have that BIG Capriccio box, but does not contain these early works - not sure how many other recordings of these compositions are 'out there' other than by Bylsma; but these are the young Luigi just getting started!  Dave 

[MN Dave]

It's good, when trying a new composer, to have a positive experience on the first listen. This is the case here. These pieces are so delightful that it prompted me to drop everything and order more CPE (... CD to be posted in the "Purchases" thread after I receive it).

[Gurn Blanston]

It's good, when trying a new composer, to have a positive experience on the first listen. This is the case here. These pieces are so delightful that it prompted me to drop everything and order more CPE (... CD to be posted in the "Purchases" thread after I receive it).

Dave,
Cool! Isn't it nice to discover someone new, and not be having to decide "hmm, did I like that or not?".   Especially in the keyboard works, and thus for sonatas in general, CPE Bach was the most influential musician of his generation. His book on how to play the keyboard was the Book right up through Beethoven, and probably beyond. Enjoy! 



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Listening to:
Bisengaliev / Lenehan - Joachim: Andantino in a for V & P

[MN Dave]

I read in the notes that he was the hot keyboardist of his time and very influential to the big three in classical.