Gurn's Classical Corner

[Coopmv]

I read in the notes that he was the hot keyboardist of his time and very influential to the big three in classical.

It could be JC Bach, who was the most famous of all Bach sons.

[Gurn Blanston]

I read in the notes that he was the hot keyboardist of his time and very influential to the big three in classical.

Yes, very much so. He introduced things like irregularity into sonata form, which is what makes music from getting boring. He was also very big on less formal stuff, like fantasias and such. That was a smaller influence in the Classical Era, but much larger for the Romantics. Anyway, during Classical times, when the name "Bach" was mentioned, it was always referring to Emanuel, never to Sebastien as it would be today.



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Listening to:
Anthony Spiri - J.C. Bach Andante in Bb for Keyboard

[MN Dave]

I also read his favorite keyboard instrument was the clavichord. I've been scared away from that instrument recently, so I think I'll stick with piano renditions for now.    Maybe someday I will be brave enough to try this instrument again.

[Gurn Blanston]

I also read his favorite keyboard instrument was the clavichord. I've been scared away from that instrument recently, so I think I'll stick with piano renditions for now.    Maybe someday I will be brave enough to try this instrument again.

Understand your trepidation. I gotta tell ya, Dave, IMHO the clavichord (recorded) is an instrument that you have to really like if you're gonna enjoy the music. I have some on clavichord, harpsichord, fortepiano and modern piano. I enjoy the fortepiano the most, even though it is not as appropriate for the music. I think it's because I enjoy the fortepiano the most. So, if you enjoy it on the piano, then that's the right thing. A disk on the clavichord would be an interesting taste of authenticity though...




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Listening to:
Anthony Spiri - J.C. Bach Op 17 #1 Sonata in G for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Menuetto con variazioni

[MN Dave]

Gurn, I'm curious why you like the fortepiano more than the modern version?

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, I'm curious why you like the fortepiano more than the modern version?

It is more suited to the music that I mostly listen to. When I listen to anything after 1840 or so, I like the modern piano because the music was written for it. The fast decay of the sound, the lighter, faster action, the lesser volume and body of the sound; all of these things were taken into account by the composers of the time. And they wrote accordingly. The JC Bach I'm listening to right now is played on a modern piano (I can't find the Op 17 sonatas on a fortepiano). And the pianist is clearly having to work at it to get the proper sound, which would come naturally from a fortepiano. It's just something that you have to learn to love, but once you do, you can't go back again.



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Listening to:
Anthony Spiri - J.C. Bach Op 17 #2 Sonata in c for Keyboard 1st mvmt - [Allegro]

[MN Dave]

When did the modern version come into play? I mean, who first wrote expressly for that instrument?

[Sorin Eushayson]

When did the modern version come into play? I mean, who first wrote expressly for that instrument?

Seeing as this is Gurn's corner I'm sure he'll be able to answer better than I.  However, I just... Can't.... Help... Myself...  Must... Interject!!! 

The large Steinway concert pianos of today didn't take the form we're familiar with until the early 20th century.  Older Steinway models that I've heard still have a portion of that earthy and vibrant tone we relate to 'period' pianos.  During an age when orchestras and venues were becoming bigger performers wanted a piano that could fill a concert hall; with its huge proportions and weighted keys the Steinway as we know it came into favour.  In older days, when ensembles were smaller and performances more intimate, pianos did not need to be loud, relying more on their natural sonorities and balanced tone than anything else.  At least, that's how I read it.  Gurn...?

[Antoine Marchand]

... Anyway, during Classical times, when the name "Bach" was mentioned, it was always referring to Emanuel, never to Sebastien as it would be today.

Jean-Sébastien Bach... Very Frenchified and suitable to the end of the XVIII century, Gurn. 

Today I was listening to a disc called Der Tangentenflügel. Musik der "Empfindsamen Zeit"  [The Tangent Piano. Music from the "Sentimental Time"], which includes some nice pieces by C.P.E. Bach, Mozart, Müthel, Schubert et al. -wide range, I know- played on that another old keyboard: the tangentenflügel [tangent fortepiano?].

[SonicMan46]

Period or modern instruments, Dave?  RE:  Boccherini, Luigi (1743-1805) - Cello Sonatas w/ Luigi Puxeddu et al...

Antoine - the liner notes are scant, but the statement made played on 'period instruments' - the sound to me would verify that claim; Luigi Puxeddu seems to be quite a busy performer - for many years, he has been the principal and cello soloist w/ I Solisti Veneti - Dave 

[Harry]

Antoine - the liner notes are scant, but the statement made played on 'period instruments' - the sound to me would verify that claim; Luigi Puxeddu seems to be quite a busy performer - for many years, he has been the principal and cello soloist w/ I Solisti Veneti - Dave 

I thought the sound a bit loud and echoing, by the sound bites I heard, but when its on period instruments, I will push the order button now.

[SonicMan46]

When did the modern version come into play? I mean, who first wrote expressly for that instrument?

Dave - below is a post (w/ some quotes) that I left in the 'old instruments' thread in early October briefly discussing the origin of the modern piano; the mid-19th century is about the earliest that close to a 'modern' piano was being used; and likely was not commonplace until the latter part of the same century and into the next.

CPE Bach's (1714-1788) keyboard instruments available to him would have been the organ, harpsichord, fortepiano, and clavichord.  Although I have a nice CPE CD collection, there are only 2 discs of keyboard works (one of sonatas on a modern piano & one of concertos w/ the harpsichord) - GROSS negligence on my part which must be corrected!  When I do get around to that task, non-modern piano will be the instruments of my choice. 

Now, I've been eying the MANY recordings done by Miklos Spanyi on the BIS label - Que has been raving about these offerings; unfortunately, there are at least 3 dozen, including both solo & orchestral keyboard works (CPE was prolific in this genre!), and not sure if that is all?  These are packaged separately and not at a bargain price - maybe a box in the future?  If interested, take a look on the MDT Website - Dave 


RE:

Mendelssohn played on a fortepiano!?   When was the modern piano invented anyway?  I've heard that the piano unlike some of the other instruments, was really finalized in the 19th century but still saw improvements throughout the 20th century.  Still that's so ridiculous!  Romantic music on a fortepiano!

Well, although many innovations were involved w/ the evolution of the 'modern' piano, I usually think of the latter as being constructed w/ a metal frame, particularly a single-forged one - these did not start appearing until the mid-19th century and were adopted and perfected after that time (below is a short quote from a Wiki Article); of course, Mendelssohn died in 1847, so he would of been brought up using the keyboard instruments of the early 19th century based on wood frames, and certainly would have composed for those instruments; hopefully, some of our more 'piano-oriented' members might provide more detailed discussion - Dave 

The single piece cast iron frame was patented in 1825 in Boston by Alpheus Babcock, combining the metal hitch pin plate (1821, claimed by Broadwood on behalf of Samuel Hervé) and resisting bars (Thom and Allen, 1820, but also claimed by Broadwood and Érard). Babcock later worked for the Chickering & Mackays firm who patented the first full iron frame for grand pianos in 1843. Composite forged metal frames were preferred by many European makers until the American system was fully adopted by the early 20th century.

[MN Dave]

Thanks, Dave, for your hard work, as usual. 

Yeah, I read up on this some last night. Turns out the classical guys always wanted more and more powerful instruments, hence part of the reason for the constant changes.

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks, Dave, for your hard work, as usual. 

Yeah, I read up on this some last night. Turns out the classical guys always wanted more and more powerful instruments, hence part of the reason for the constant changes.

Dave,
Sorry I couldn't answer your question last night; I went to bed instead, golf is early on Sundays...

Looks like my posse took care of you though. My personal feeling, although I haven't seen it incorporated in definition form yet, is that the single major innovation that makes a piano NOT a fortepiano is the iron frame. Of course, there was a continuous series of improvements, but no single one of them can compare with the change from wood to iron.



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Listening to:
Cleveland Orchestra / Szell (1963) - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 2nd mvmt - Molto vivace

[Que]

CPE Bach's (1714-1788) keyboard instruments available to him would have been the organ, harpsichord, fortepiano, and clavichord. 

And the tangent piano, which is also used by Spanyi in his recordings.

Q

[SonicMan46]

And the tangent piano, which is also used by Spanyi in his recordings.

Hi Q - well, I guess that CPE likely played around w/ even other types of keyboards at the time, such as the lute harpsichord (lautenwerk) and possibly the pedal harpsichord?   

Yep - I need to pick up a few of those Spanyi discs, but there are just TOO many!    Dave

[Que]

Hi Q - well, I guess that CPE likely played around w/ even other types of keyboards at the time, such as the lute harpsichord (lautenwerk) and possibly the pedal harpsichord?   

Yep - I need to pick up a few of those Spanyi discs, but there are just TOO many!    Dave

Indeed - the advantage of a transitional era: you can go both ways and some "exotic/experimental" instruments for good measure!

And yes, CPE's keyboard music - accompanied and unaccompanied is a true mer à boire... We need a CPE veteran to point us out the goodies!  Where is Gurn when you need him?....

Q

[Sorin Eushayson]

About Mendelssohn in general: I've actually read that the instruments he had available would have been considered conservative for the time.  The Gewandausorchester, for example, still used natural brass under his direction according to C. Spering's article on the matter.

Gut strings and various non-Steinway pianos were still in regular use even into the early 20th century.

[Gurn Blanston]

About Mendelssohn in general: I've actually read that the instruments he had available would have been considered conservative for the time.  The Gewandausorchester, for example, still used natural brass under his direction according to C. Spering's article on the matter.

Gut strings and various non-Steinway pianos were still in regular use even into the early 20th century.

All true. There is a preconception, and not just in music practice, that as of a certain date, something or other took place (an invention, an idea, whatever) and suddenly and without looking back, the entire 'industry' changed overnight. All of this stuff was gradual and incomplete. At this point in history, it is likely going to be difficult to convince people that they need to start thinking in shades of gray....

[karlhenning]

All true. There is a preconception, and not just in music practice, that as of a certain date, something or other took place (an invention, an idea, whatever) and suddenly and without looking back, the entire 'industry' changed overnight. All of this stuff was gradual and incomplete. At this point in history, it is likely going to be difficult to convince people that they need to start thinking in shades of gray....

What if, as an example, we point out that when houses became 'electrified', a nationwide grid was not exactly in place overnight? ; )