Gurn's Classical Corner

[Lethevich]

You may also want to explore the 'Composer Thread' that Lethe has put together, a compilation of specific composer topics; there birth-death dates are given, so you can easily match the time period suggested previously.

I would've loved to be able to do something more with that thread to assist accessability, such as colour code the composers to period (with shades in between for transitional ones) but I am running out of word limit on the two posts as it is

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, thought that I'd re-post a brief 'listening thread' entry here for posterity! 

Just acquired the Onslow SQ discs below - now have 3 discs of the SQs & 3 discs of the SQuintets; not even a third of the way to his total output of about 70 works in these two genres!  Just finished the Quatuor Diotima disc and have to agree w/ Gurn - this is wonderfully composed and intricate music, early Romantic but looking toward the future - the performers are just superb in their playing; these are later works (post-LvB last SQs) and show more complexity and individuality at least to my ears.  The second disc just starting to spin! 

Dave,
Yes, I have both of those disks, as well as the other 2 by the Mandelrings. The Diotima is definitely my favorite, but I don't think it is because of the playing so much as I just like those 4tets better. It's like Onslow just hit a new idea with those and the earlier ones aren't as... provocative. Glad you like them though. You validate my taste...

[Gurn Blanston]

Hello Gurn,

Although I listen to classical type music from many genres and eras (my favorite probably being Baroque), I'm trying to learn more about the Classical era in particular.

The problem for me though is that I'm confused about just what exactly the Classical era really is. It seems there are many composers from this period that have a foot in the late Baroque or early Romantic eras, and the whole genre is so thoroughly overshadowed by the big three (Mozart, Haydn & early Beethoven), that few others come to mind or seldom get any attention.

I know of some Classical era composers, like Hummel, Stamnitz, Bach's sons, etc., but can you give me any links to a more definitive list of other composers that are firmly grounded in this era that are worth listening too? I probably have some of them in my collection already (I have so many LP's and CD's bought second hand I'm not even sure what I have anymore...). Also, any recommended books on this era would be appreciated.

I know you may have already given such a list on this thread somewhere, but I'm not a regular here and would rather save myself the trouble of looking.

Thank you,

Cristo, I am delighted with your interest. Unfortunately I am on vacation right now and won't be home until next weekend. The people I am staying with don't have any books or music for me to use in a good post. Next Saturday though I will be back home and try to come up with something that might be interesting (short of writing a book!). Meanwhile, a good resource for raw data is Wiki, if you look under 'Classical Period Music' they have a decent article there, and at least some composers and dates that might be useful. Being an artificial construct like it is, it stands to reason more or less that the time period descried is based specifically on the "Big 3", and many others are straddling the borders on one side or the other. I believe that in the 19th century, when "Classical" was first used in the sense we use it today, there was very little interest or concern in other composers of that time. Once the "Canon of Western Music" was devised, (and it was a bigger deal then than now!), nothing else rated any interest.

Here are two composers to chew on. Strictly Classical School.

Antonio Rosetti and Joseph Kraus.

And J. B Vanhal.

No wait, that's 3. Here are 3 composers to chew on....   

[Gurn Blanston]

I would've loved to be able to do something more with that thread to assist accessability, such as colour code the composers to period (with shades in between for transitional ones) but I am running out of word limit on the two posts as it is

Let's give that some thought Sara. I may have an idea or 2 how to manage that. I'll get back to you next weekend.

[Lethevich]

Thanks - it's partly my fault for not thinking ahead and placeholding more posts at the start of the thread, but I could just copy it into a new one as a last resort (if the current two posts hit their limit).

[Gabriel]

Here are two composers to chew on. Strictly Classical School.

Antonio Rosetti and Joseph Kraus.

And J. B Vanhal.

No wait, that's 3. Here are 3 composers to chew on....   

As part of the "classicists" participating in GMG, I'd dare to complete the suggestions by Gurn as to complete a total of five.

Add Cherubini and Rejcha [Reicha].

And Méhul. And Vorísek.

There you have seven!

And Boccherini, pointed out by Dave, is often overlooked; but he's really among the best ones of this period. (Voilà! Eight excellent composers... and the list will surely go on!)

[Cristofori]

As part of the "classicists" participating in GMG, I'd dare to complete the suggestions by Gurn as to complete a total of five.

Add Cherubini and Rejcha [Reicha].

And Méhul. And Vorísek.

There you have seven!

And Boccherini, pointed out by Dave, is often overlooked; but he's really among the best ones of this period. (Voilà! Eight excellent composers... and the list will surely go on!)

Thanks for all the suggestions. Méhul & Vorísek sound like Czech or Hungarian composers. I'll have to dig through my eastern European LP's to see If I have anything by them. I also have some of the more unusual and uncommon composers on the MHS label. Some of them may be strictly of the Classical era. 

I'm familiar with Cherubini's requiem, and Boccherini is a favorite of mine. Funny though... I never thought of them as being strictly "Classical", especially Boccherini, who seems more Baroque to me.
My feelings on the Italians is that they seemed to have jumped straight from the Baroque to the Romantic eras.

I guess I will have to re-adjust my thinking on some of these things! 

[Cristofori]

Cristo, I am delighted with your interest. Unfortunately I am on vacation right now and won't be home until next weekend. The people I am staying with don't have any books or music for me to use in a good post. Next Saturday though I will be back home and try to come up with something that might be interesting (short of writing a book!). Meanwhile, a good resource for raw data is Wiki, if you look under 'Classical Period Music' they have a decent article there, and at least some composers and dates that might be useful. Being an artificial construct like it is, it stands to reason more or less that the time period descried is based specifically on the "Big 3", and many others are straddling the borders on one side or the other. I believe that in the 19th century, when "Classical" was first used in the sense we use it today, there was very little interest or concern in other composers of that time. Once the "Canon of Western Music" was devised, (and it was a bigger deal then than now!), nothing else rated any interest.

Here are two composers to chew on. Strictly Classical School.

Antonio Rosetti and Joseph Kraus.

And J. B Vanhal.

No wait, that's 3. Here are 3 composers to chew on....   

Thanks for the info. I know I could have looked at Wikipedia, but it's much more fun to engage in discussion and ask some real people their thoughts. Besides, I was looking for a list of composers that are the most "intensely Classical" as possible.

Funny that you mentioned Rosetti. I recently picked up a CD of three of his Horn Concertos played by Barry Tuckwell on the EMI Eminence label. I don't believe I've ever heard anything by him yet.

I will have a listen tomorrow!

[assadourian]

Hello Gurn,

Although I listen to classical type music from many genres and eras (my favorite probably being Baroque), I'm trying to learn more about the Classical era in particular.

The problem for me though is that I'm confused about just what exactly the Classical era really is. It seems there are many composers from this period that have a foot in the late Baroque or early Romantic eras, and the whole genre is so thoroughly overshadowed by the big three (Mozart, Haydn & early Beethoven), that few others come to mind or seldom get any attention.

I know of some Classical era composers, like Hummel, Stamnitz, Bach's sons, etc., but can you give me any links to a more definitive list of other composers that are firmly grounded in this era that are worth listening too? I probably have some of them in my collection already (I have so many LP's and CD's bought second hand I'm not even sure what I have anymore...). Also, any recommended books on this era would be appreciated.

I know you may have already given such a list on this thread somewhere, but I'm not a regular here and would rather save myself the trouble of looking.

Thank you,

You can try Leopold Kozeluh (1747-1818) : Fine sonatas , and all  instrumental works (you can
find CD of 3 piano concerti, symphonies -one in g minor is very beautifull , piano sonatas are also
very interesting. His oratorio "Moise en Egypte" is really beautifull.

Ignaz Pleyel : among his symphonies , quartets ...there are some pearls.
I don't present Boccherini and Kraus really outstanding (try their symphonies)
Muzio Clementi(1752-1832) is for me one of the best piano composer of XVIII's end,
(his sonatas op 13,25,34,40,41,50 are chef-d'oeuvres)

The Czech Vanhal, Vranicky (Pavel more than Anton)
Gossec and Mehul are very fine french composers in instrumental and vocal.
Hyacinthe Jadin and his Brother Emmanuel.
It is a good scope for beginning exploration of late XVIII°
I have certainly forgotten some otthers , these names are essential
 

[assadourian]

Just after this period , a flourish vague of "preromantics" come with the expansion of the piano.

These forgotten genius are: Hummel of course , but also JL Dussek (sonatas op 35,44,61,64, 77 ;
concertos op 49 ,63....)
John Field (nocturnes +concertos)
Tomasek (eglogues, rhapsodies, 2 concerti)
Vorisek ( piano pieces)
JB Cramer (8 cocertos, somes genial sonatas)
Daniel steibelt , ferdinand Ries (Symphonies N° 1,2,4,6..piano pieces ,chamber, concerti and his
oratorio "Die Israeliten in Aegypt")
Anton Reicha ( fugues for piano, chamber music .His ouvertures are more orignals than his
symphonies)
I have discover recently the symphonies (particularly the two last )of Danzi
Sigismund Neukomm (1778-1857)
Josef Woelfl (sonatas ,2 symphonies , 8 concertos....)
Luigi Cherubini , Spontini.
APF Boely( i have open without succes a topic about him , like Steibelt...).

[Cristofori]

Here are two composers to chew on. Strictly Classical School.

Antonio Rosetti and Joseph Kraus.

And J. B Vanhal.

No wait, that's 3. Here are 3 composers to chew on....   

I recently had a listen to that Rosetti's Horn Concertos CD I told you about, and I must say it is very Classical indeed!

The orchestration was particularly interesting, (even more so then some of the horn playing in parts) and not just there as a bland accompaniment to the solo instrument. The Mozartian flourishes were obvious, but were distinctly different from those which Mozart written.

I love the Baroque/Classical horn concerto genre. I always feel so uplifted and triumphant after hearing them, and I can't say I've ever heard a bad one yet!

[SonicMan46]

I recently had a listen to that Rosetti's Horn Concertos CD I told you about, and I must say it is very Classical indeed!

The orchestration was particularly interesting, (even more so then some of the horn playing in parts) and not just there as a bland accompaniment to the solo instrument.....................

Hi Cristofori - glad that you're enjoying Rosetti's horn concertos; I have about a dozen CDs of this composer w/ many on the CPO label.  This short lived composer (1750-1792) was actually born in Bohemia as 'Anton Rösler' - he Italianized his name in his early 20s; but the importance is that these eastern European composers of this era were just wonderful 'wind writers'!

I'm not sure 'how much' Rosetti that you own, but checkout the Berkshire Record Outlet HERE - they are currently offering 4 CPO discs for these wind performances at only $7 each - own them all and can recommend each one!  Happy shopping - 

[AndyD.]

It's funny how the eras overlap each other. Beethoven's last string quartets (and to a lesser degree his piano sonatas) have moments that don't sound dissimilar to the 20th century Expressionists.

Even cooler: I listened to Bartok's 4th String Quartet yesterday, then caught myself later, during a part of Bach's Contrapuntus 2, checking to see if I'd left the Bartok on! Just bits and pieces, but fascinating huh?

[Scarpia]

It's funny how the eras overlap each other. Beethoven's last string quartets (and to a lesser degree his piano sonatas) have moments that don't sound dissimilar to the 20th century Expressionists.

Even cooler: I listened to Bartok's 4th String Quartet yesterday, then caught myself later, during a part of Bach's Contrapuntus 2, checking to see if I'd left the Bartok on! Just bits and pieces, but fascinating huh?

Yes, and if you listen to one of the old-school big-orchestra recordings of a slow movement from a Bach concerto you might imagine at times that you are listening to something by Brahms.

[AndyD.]

Yes, and if you listen to one of the old-school big-orchestra recordings of a slow movement from a Bach concerto you might imagine at times that you are listening to something by Brahms.

Exactly! It's amazing.

[Scarpia]

Exactly! It's amazing.

Once I was at a concert and they were tuning their instruments and when they were done I applauded because I mistook it for a piece by Webern.  ( Just kidding.)

[Gurn Blanston]

Once I was at a concert and they were tuning their instruments and when they were done I applauded because I mistook it for a piece by Webern.  ( Just kidding.)

It was a bit long for that, eh? 

[AndyD.]

It was a bit long for that, eh? 

[SonicMan46]

Just wanted to re-post a 'listening thread' entry made earlier today, i.e. CPE Bach w/ the early Trio Sonatas performed beautifully - he is one of those early 'transitional' classical composers influenced by his father as a youngster and then trying to find his own way later, esp. after joining the court of Crown Prince Frederick in 1738 as the harpsichordist in the ensemble group w/ the prince being the flautist; CPE was in his mid-20s at the time!

The works on this 2-CD offering are Wq. 144-151 and have an interesting history that impacts on how the music was changing in the mid-18th century; Wq. 144-147 were composed in 1731 (a year before Haydn & Washington were born!), but were 'revised' in 1747 (according to the liner notes) after CPE Bach had been in the employment of Frederick; the 2nd son seemed to want to 'escape' the older influences of his father (and actually destroyed the earlier manuscripts).

Wq. 148 was composed in 1735; Wq. 149 in 1745; and Wq. 150-51 in 1747 - so 'bottom line', these are basically mid-18 century chamber music works (some brought 'up to date') by JS Bach's 2nd son - an absolutely wonderful 'transitional' period for me - instruments are transverse flute, violin, cello, & harpsichord - 

Bach, CPE - Trio Sonatas, Wq. 144-151 w/ Remy (on harpsichord) & Les Amis de Phillippe - 2CD set (each CD just 51", so could have added at least one and maybe 2 more works to each disc) - but the music is wonderful, and into that early classical transitional period that I do enjoy - 

[SonicMan46]

Mozart - Piano Concertos - new (i.e. recorded in 2005-06) contender at the top for PI performances of these works and likely will be preferred by me over my current set w/ Bilson & Gardiner.

Viviana Sofronitzki on a fortepiano built by her husband, Paul NcNulty after one by the famous Viennese maker, Anton Walter (who apparently had made one of WA Mozart's favorite fortepianos, according to the liner notes).

I was lucky to obtained this box of 11 discs from the Amazon Marketplace for just $72 - apparently has been re-packaged into a small box w/ the CDs in cardboard sleeves, each w/ a different picture of the performers.  The 38-booklet that I received is in English only; there is a 16-page introduction in translation by Jan Weber; then each disc is discussed briefly by Sofronitzki; and the final pages discuss the instrument used, a number of the other major performers, and the orchestra.

For those wanting a PI performance of these works, this package is certainly one of the top considerations - but a pain to obtain at a good price, at least for me -