Gurn's Classical Corner

[Leo K.]

I am conflicted when it comes to emulating Mr. Ludd. Deep down I have this feeling that every time that we gain something (through some technological or other breakthrough) that we lose something else. And sometimes the something else is a cost out of all proportion with gains made. Sometimes not, of course. But one never knows in advance, due to the Law of Unintended Consequences. But it is not reasonable to reject what you have now in favor of pining over something that you may never have had in your own time. Wishing is something we do, however, without regard to the difficulties of time travel or the exigencies of life that balanced out the upsides. Here is one I have often heard people pine over:

The Fifth Symphony was premiered on December 22, 1808 at a mammoth concert at the Theater an der Wien in Vienna consisting entirely of Beethoven premieres, and directed by Beethoven himself.[4] The concert went for more than four hours. The two symphonies appeared on the program in reverse order: the Sixth was played first, and the Fifth appeared in the second half.[5] The program was as follows:

   1. The Sixth Symphony
   2. Aria: "Ah, perfido", Op. 65
   3. The Gloria movement of the Mass in C major
   4. The Fourth Piano Concerto (played by Beethoven himself)
   5. (Intermission)
   6. The Fifth Symphony
   7. The Sanctus and Benedictus movements of the C major Mass
   8. A solo piano improvisation played by Beethoven (believed to be the Fantasia Op. 77)
   9. The Choral Fantasy

Makes you want to be there, eh? Despite that there was no heat in the Theater an der Wien and it was probably in the 40's inside. And the people there had a life expectancy of 40 years. And Napoleon would rape Vienna within 5 months. And if you got scratched by the wrong thing, you were certain to die. And, and, and....

It is a tough choice when we look back, not to wish in some way that we could partake.  All we see are the very good things and the very bad things, but we rarely get the context, the nitty-gritty as it were. It would have been cool to spend a couple years with Schubert, if I could have avoided getting syphilis from the same whore who gave it to him...

I've tried to imagine being at that concert, and conclude I would probably be miserable!

I think of that question often, whether I could truly live in the 18th or 19th centuries, knowing life expectancy was short (if you could make it to 40), and medical care was painful (like surgery or tooth problems), not to mention the body odor  Also, to be born in the lower class would mean a real tough existence.

It would be great to have a visit though time travel, just to finally witness or see that concert!

[Gurn Blanston]

In those days performances of a new piece of music were often interrupted due to the orchestra being unable to play the music through.  Nowadays an orchestra gets ripped in the papers if some horn entry or another was not done exactly to the reviewers preference.  Given the choice of one or the other, I'll take Karajan.

That too. Or keeping the instrument in tune when it's 45° in there. Not Karajan though...    Oh, OK!

I've tried to imagine being at that concert, and conclude I would probably be miserable!

I think of that question often, whether I could truly live in the 18th or 19th centuries, knowing life expectancy was short (if you could make it to 40), and medical care was painful (like surgery or tooth problems), not to mention the body odor  Also, to be born in the lower class would mean a real tough existence.

It would be great to have a visit though time travel, just to finally witness or see that concert!

  yes, there is a big downside for the modern. Although I figure they probably couldn't smell body odor back then, it was part of the background 'wall of smell'. Like dumping chamber pots out the window into the gutter, or slipping in horseshit while crossing the street.

Ultimately, yes, it was a damned harsh existence by our standards! I'm in favor of time travel though...

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

In those days performances of a new piece of music were often interrupted due to the orchestra being unable to play the music through. 

It's ironic that when classical music was a lot more central to culture than it is now, playing standards were a lot lower than today, and public concerts were much fewer.

If I had to live in the 18th century, I'd like to be a member of the orchestra on some nobleman's estate. Given the low standards, I think I could manage it.

[Antoine Marchand]

It's ironic that when classical music was a lot more central to culture than it is now, playing standards were a lot lower than today, and public concerts were much fewer.

If I had to live in the 18th century, I'd like to be a member of the orchestra on some nobleman's estate. Given the low standards, I think I could manage it.

I'm sorry Velimir, but I think those are unacceptable common places. Do you think that Bach's skills as a Baroque organist or Mozart or Clementi abilities like Classical fortepianists have been largely surpassed? Probably many dilettanti, mere amateurs of that age would be better than our professionals. I'm sure. 

[DavidRoss]

Like dumping chamber pots out the window into the gutter, or slipping in horseshit while crossing the street.

To hear some of our northern countrymen speak, it's still this way in your neck of the woods, Gurn!

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Do you think that Bach's skills as a Baroque organist or Mozart or Clementi abilities like Classical fortepianists have been largely surpassed?

Bach and Mozart were towering geniuses, therefore exceptions. I wasn't talking about them, but about the rank-&-file players in orchestras. There are plenty of documented examples of orchestras struggling with new pieces by Beethoven, and even Mozart's late symphonies, because they were way harder than what they'd previously played.

[Gurn Blanston]

To hear some of our northern countrymen speak, it's still this way in your neck of the woods, Gurn!

That's Louisiana, not Texas. Not a lot of miles, but a world away.

[Antoine Marchand]

Bach and Mozart were towering geniuses, therefore exceptions. I wasn't talking about them, but about the rank-&-file players in orchestras. There are plenty of documented examples of orchestras struggling with new pieces by Beethoven, and even Mozart's late symphonies, because they were way harder than what they'd previously played.

Yes, that was because orchestras have almost no time for rehearsals. During the XVIII century music was not something "dead", but a part of the daily public life at school, church or town council. Today Mozart ended up his "Linz" Symphony and it should be performed tomorrow in the night. So, some mistakes were absolutely explainable and expectable.

On the other hand, today every musician who plays Beethoven's Ninth has had the opportunity in order to listen to that work dozzens of times, in live or disc, even before to play one single note. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Bach and Mozart were towering geniuses, therefore exceptions. I wasn't talking about them, but about the rank-&-file players in orchestras. There are plenty of documented examples of orchestras struggling with new pieces by Beethoven, and even Mozart's late symphonies, because they were way harder than what they'd previously played.

To be a little more fair to the players though, it was common practice to not... practice! There is a letter from Haydn (actually a couple of them) to a Kapellmeister telling him that it would be a good thing to play the piece through at least once because it was rather difficult. The obvious implication being that normally they wouldn't have. Which means that everything was sight-read at performance! Actually, they must have been pretty damned good to be able to do that!   

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, that was because orchestras have almost no time for rehearsals. During the XVIII century music was not something "dead", but a part of the daily public life at school, church or town council. Today Mozart ended up his "Linz" Symphony and it should be performed tomorrow in the night. So, some mistakes were absolutely explainable and expectable.

On the other hand, today every musician who plays Beethoven's Ninth has had the opportunity in order to listen to that work dozzens of times, in live or disc, even before to play one single note. 

And he was writing down the overture of Don Giovanni in the carriage on the way to the performance...

[Antoine Marchand]

And he was writing down the overture of Don Giovanni in the carriage on the way to the performance...

Additionally. those guys didn't have cable, internet, electricity, movies, animes,  tons of porn, books, newspapers and so on; therefore, they had a lot of time ("free" time, stolen by the Industrial Revolution) to master their respective instruments, even when they were amateurs.

[Gurn Blanston]

Additionally. those guys didn't have cable, internet, electricity, movies, animes,  tons of porn, books, newspapers and so on; therefore, they had a lot of time ("free" time, stolen by the Industrial Revolution) to master their respective instruments, even when they were amateurs.

No porn?

Well, they did have some of that stuff (especially books), but your point is well taken. Music was the diversion, at least if you were of sufficient class to be able to partake.

[Antoine Marchand]

No porn?

Oh, yes. To watch naked women has been a favorite hobby of our genre for ages. Sad, but true. Anyway, the amount of pornography available today for common people (not just well-off people, as in the past) is outstanding... and somebody is consuming all that product. These days probably San Fernando Valley is "culturally" that important as Paris was during the XVIIIth and XIXth centuries.   

Well, they did have some of that stuff (especially books)...

Well, that's not totally true regarding books, Gurn. Books were extraordinarily expensive; there was not, for instance, pocket books; there was almost not public libraries, when books were large, they were bought by subscription and so on. So, to read a good book were not an easy option if you were not well-off people...

[Gurn Blanston]

Oh, yes. To watch naked women has been a favorite hobby of our genre for ages. Sad, but true. Anyway, the amount of pornography available today for common people (not just well-off people, as in the past) is outstanding... and somebody is consuming all that product. These days probably San Fernando Valley is "culturally" that important as Paris was during the XVIIIth and XIXth centuries.   

Well, that's not totally true regarding books, Gurn. Books were extraordinarily expensive; there was not, for instance, pocket books; there was almost not public libraries, when books were large, they were bought by subscription and so on. So, to read a good book were not an easy option if you were not well-off people...

Well, I was only thinking of the upper classes as being worthy of this discussion, a lesson I learned from reading history...    0:)

The people who could access music could also access books. Everyone else could suck eggs. It really was a sorry state, all things considered. There was very little migration up the ladder. Contrary to modern cinematic portrayals. Even if you miraculously became frightfully well-to-do and got (ie: bought) a nobility patent, doesn't mean that it wouldn't be several generations before the upper crust would deign to speak with you (unless they needed cash).

[Antoine Marchand]

Well, I was only thinking of the upper classes as being worthy of this discussion, a lesson I learned from reading history...    0:)

I perfectly know you are a learned moderator, dear Gurn. But here we are not necessarily talking about upper classes because "professional" musicians were not a part of those classes and this conversation began talking about them. Certainly, amateurs were another story and they fit in your comment.

[Gurn Blanston]

I perfectly know you are a learned moderator, dear Gurn. But here we are not necessarily talking about upper classes because "professional" musicians were not a part of those classes and this conversation began talking about them. Certainly, amateurs were another story and they fit in your comment.

Could musicians even read? I thought they either blew, plucked, bowed or plinked...

Haydn had a huge personal library, well thumbed through and notated in the margins in his handwriting. Apropos of nothing at all....  0:)

[Antoine Marchand]

Haydn had a huge personal library, well thumbed through and notated in the margins in his handwriting. Apropos of nothing at all....  0:)

Yes, a very exceptional case, Gurn... and I will even accept your hyperbolic "huge" (I know, I know a rhetorical device).

Probably, these days I am especially sensible about these themes because two weeks ago I bought a Kindle and the amount of information available is simply overwhelming. This said by a guy who has made two things in life: to buy books and discs... and who has eventually  read/listened to some of them. 

[DavidRoss]

Curiosity re. the foregoing discussion prompted a bit of googling, which turned up this article assessing Haydn's achievement and influence (and personal library), that others like myself who are hardly authorities on the subject might find interesting:  http://www.logosjournal.com/joseph-haydn-two-centuries-later.php

[Gurn Blanston]

Curiosity re. the foregoing discussion prompted a bit of googling, which turned up this article assessing Haydn's achievement and influence (and personal library), that others like myself who are hardly authorities on the subject might find interesting:  http://www.logosjournal.com/joseph-haydn-two-centuries-later.php

Nice essay, David!

Hörwartner says the books were read, I can agree with this guy's supposition that the English ones were probably not. That would have been a push. Certainly the German and Italian ones were easy for him though; he spoke Italian like a native, odd in someone who had never been there.

Hope everyone takes a few minutes to read that.

[karlhenning]

Tangentially, I learn today that Peter Bergman had a dog named Nurgi — an anagram for I, Gurn.

Coincidence? Ask Rob Newman . . . .