Gurn's Classical Corner

[Willoughby earl of Itacarius]

Damn, sorry to hear that. I enjoyed his symphonies, and wanted to hear some chamber music. Recordings are thin on the ground though...

Not quite, I have this recording too, and its far from muddy or loose. Ensemble Cordia is made up of experienced musicians, and they play well what the composer has written. It has a meandering pace, but the lines are well defined, though I discovered that after several hearings. True it can be better played, but do not dismiss this commendable performance.

[Gurn Blanston]

Not quite, I have this recording too, and its far from muddy or loose. Ensemble Cordia is made up of experienced musicians, and they play well what the composer has written. It has a meandering pace, but the lines are well defined, though I discovered that after several hearings. True it can be better played, but do not dismiss this commendable performance.

Thanks, Harry. I can give it a chance. I know that sometimes things don't strike us well at first hearing but down the road they suddenly click. Of course, I also know the opposite to be true from time to time. 

[chasmaniac]

Not quite, I have this recording too, and its far from muddy or loose. Ensemble Cordia is made up of experienced musicians, and they play well what the composer has written. It has a meandering pace, but the lines are well defined, though I discovered that after several hearings. True it can be better played, but do not dismiss this commendable performance.

I listened twice before judging, alas!

On the other hand, Harry's a cat, and I always respect that! Different ears etc.

[SonicMan46]

Thanks, Harry. I can give it a chance. I know that sometimes things don't strike us well at first hearing but down the road they suddenly click. Of course, I also know the opposite to be true from time to time. 

Hi Gurn - the Vranicky brothers, i.e. Antonin & Pavel (or Anton & Paul Wranitsky wrote a LOT of music; I just have 3 discs of their work (2 being some symphonies); and I've not heard the chamber disc under question, BUT if you are interested in classical sextets, then the one shown below by them may be of interest, i.e. 1 sextet by Anton & 3 by Paul - short All Music review HERE - Dave

[Chaszz]

When one reads about Gluck's importance, usually the theme is his reformation of opera. But I find the orchestral aspects of his music very beautiful and interesting. (I must admit that I also highly value the orchestral aspects of the operas of my other favorite opera composers, Wagner, Puccini and Strauss. I also am aware that opera composers enlarged the orchestra by adding new instruments in more than one era, and contributed in other leading ways to the development of the orchestra and instrumental music). 

So I'm interested in to what extent did Gluck in his orchestral aspects have a hand in forming the mature "Classical" style.  Did he have a formative influence, or did he just adapt what had been done by Haydn (and Mozart?)? Since Gluck as an orchestrator and instrumental writer is never discussed, it's hard to find out. I could probably get a foggy sort of answer by looking up the dates of each composer's early maturity and comparing them, but I figure it's better to ask here, if anyone is familiar enough with Gluck's orchestral and formal development to answer.

[Chaszz]

..."Is Beethoven a Classicist or a Romantic?"

"Stirs up a lot of emotion, clearly a Romantic". 

To pianist and musicologist Charles Rosen ("The Classical Style: Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven)" and to Peter, founder of the Beethoven Reference Site, Beethoven is clearly a Classical not a Romantic composer. (Unless your remark is intended to be ironic.) 

[Gurn Blanston]

To pianist and musicologist Charles Rosen ("The Classical Style: Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven," and to Peter, founder of the Beethoven Reference Site, Beethoven is clearly a Classical not a Romantic composer. (Unless your remark is intended to be ironic.)

Unquestionably ironic.

When one reads about Gluck's importance, usually the theme is his reformation of opera. But I find the orchestral aspects of his music very beautiful and interesting. (I must admit that I also highly value the orchestral aspects of the operas my other favorite opera composers, Wagner, Puccini and Strauss. I also am aware that opera composers enlarged the orchestra in more than one era, and contributed in other leading ways to the development of the orchestra and instrumental music). 

So I'm interested in to what extent did Gluck in his orchestral aspects have a hand in forming the mature "Classical" style.  Did he have a formative influence, or did he just adapt what had been done by Haydn (and Mozart?)? Since Gluck as an orchestrator and instrumental writer is never discussed, it's hard to find out. I could probably get a foggy sort of answer by looking up the dates of each composer's early maturity and comparing them, but I figure it's better to ask here, if anyone is familiar enough with Gluck's orchestral and formal development to answer.

Well, Time's Arrow plays a part in the answer, Chaszz. By the time that Haydn and Mozart came along in an influential sort of way, Gluck was a Grand Old Man in Vienna, and even though he still composed (at a slower rate, of course), I think he was beyond being influenced by current composers. However, he was clearly a big influence on Mozart, at least in an operatic sort of way. It is a lot harder to define the influences on Haydn though. Anyway, can we assume here that you are talking about the orchestra while it is still being used accompany vocals? Or do you mean in a purely instrumental sort of way?

His purely instrumental music was not very pioneering, while his operatic music rather was.

From the New Grove article on Gluck:

Instrumental works
Orchestral: 9 symphonies in  C, D, D, D, D, E, F, F, G, most (scored) for 2 horns & Strings

12 other syms., CZ-Bm, Pnm, D-Dl, Rtt, WRl, I-PAc, S-SK, Skma, some doubtful; Chaconne, B , DK-Kk, doubtful

Chamber: 6 Sonatas, 2 vn, bc (London, 1746)

Sonata, E, 2 vn, b,
Sonata, F, 2 vn, b,
Adagio, c, wind insts,
Notturno, 2 fl, b,
Sestetto, fl, ob, 2 vn, va, vc,
all doubtful

Harpsichord: Andante, G, doubtful

There were also several ballets, many lost. I would believe that given the time period, they were probably his most influential instrumental works.

[Chaszz]

Unquestionably ironic.

Well, Time's Arrow plays a part in the answer, Chaszz. By the time that Haydn and Mozart came along in an influential sort of way, Gluck was a Grand Old Man in Vienna, and even though he still composed (at a slower rate, of course), I think he was beyond being influenced by current composers. However, he was clearly a big influence on Mozart, at least in an operatic sort of way. It is a lot harder to define the influences on Haydn though. Anyway, can we assume here that you are talking about the orchestra while it is still being used accompany vocals? Or do you mean in a purely instrumental sort of way?

His purely instrumental music was not very pioneering, while his operatic music rather was...

Thanks for your answer, Gurn. I'm talking about Gluck in a more purely instumental way, not just specifically as an accompanist to arias but also including that.

I think your two statements "By the time that Haydn and Mozart came along in an influential sort of way, Gluck was a Grand Old Man in Vienna..." and "His purely instrumental music was not very pioneering while his operatic music rather was..." may be self-contradictary. (Note: I don't know whether in the second statement you are referring to the instrumental aspects of his opera music or to non-opera instrumental music he may have composed.)

Let's talk about two important aspects of the Classical instrumental style, first the phrasing, tonal sound, and "feel" of the music, second the large formal structural aspects, such as sonata form. Both of these in contrast to the preceding eras of Baroque and transition. Obviously Gluck's influence on the latter stylistic aspect, the large forms, would have had to be very limited, because he wrote operas, not symphonies. But it seems to me that in the former aspect, he may have been very significant. Since his overtures and the other instances of instrumental writing in his opera music are already sounding just like the mature classical style, and he was already a Grand Old Man when Haydn came along, isn't it accurate to say he might have had a big influence on Haydn in this respect? Were there any other transitional or early Classical composers, preceding Haydn, who displayed this mature Classical style? Indeed may Gluck not have been decisive in creating it? And if so isn't he missing a good deal of credit in musical history, simply because he wrote operas not symphonies?

[Karl Henning]

Only an oblique answer (if indeed it be any answer at all) . . . but both Mendelssohn and Berlioz had great admiration for Gluck. I know that by itself, that won't mean much . . . somebody will be apt to say that Beethoven thought the world of Dittersdorf . . . .

[Leon]

I always feel a pang of sadness whenever Carl Ditters von Dittersdorf is put forward as an example of an undeservedly well-known composer.



Same for Telemann.

[Brian]

I've just listened with pleasure to the 'Concerto bergamasco' by Simon Mayr, new on Naxos:



The concerto, the first movement of which is for flute, the second for clarinet, the third for basset horn, and the fourth for all three plus piccolo, was apparently composed for an Italian virtuoso who could play all four instruments and wanted a work that could show off his virtuosity to its fullest! The concerto itself is not going to win any raves for drama or originality (the first movement has a particularly insistent "allusion to" Beethoven's Second Symphony) but it was a quite pleasant 25 minutes and a nifty tribute to a forgotten super-soloist.

[mc ukrneal]

I've just listened with pleasure to the 'Concerto bergamasco' by Simon Mayr, new on Naxos:



The concerto, the first movement of which is for flute, the second for clarinet, the third for basset horn, and the fourth for all three plus piccolo, was apparently composed for an Italian virtuoso who could play all four instruments and wanted a work that could show off his virtuosity to its fullest! The concerto itself is not going to win any raves for drama or originality (the first movement has a particularly insistent "allusion to" Beethoven's Second Symphony) but it was a quite pleasant 25 minutes and a nifty tribute to a forgotten super-soloist.

How interesting. I usually like such oddities.

[SonicMan46]

Titz, Anton (1742-1811) - String Quartets - boy I've not thought about this composer in a while - last quote below from Gurn about 2 yrs ago!  Now own 3 volumes of these works, and starting w/ the first one this morning (added a 3rd pic of the vol. 3) -

Speaking of St. Petersburg, Catherine must have had some kind of musical establishment. It seems as though half the musicians in Europe spent some time there. Another one who stayed for the duration of his life was Anton Ferdinand Titz. Once again the adventurous Sonic Guy turned me on to this composer, and I ended up with 2 of his disks, not knowing if there are any others available. That would be these:

 

They are worth seeking out, nice music.

In any case, here is some info on Titz, also from Grove's:

[Uncle Connie]

I've just listened with pleasure to the 'Concerto bergamasco' by Simon Mayr, new on Naxos:

I have a different recording of this work, and the thought of such a fascinating novelty really appealed to me - until I heard it a couple of times.  Once you learn that it's for one solo player only, so that there are no duet/trio/quartet solo bits, you quickly realize that an effective performance is going to involve a visual element as the soloist changes instruments to the amazement of all in attendance, one hopes....  but on a CD that effect is completely lost and so the concerto now has to stand on its own musical merits.  Unfortunately those are rather few.  I happen to have a fondness for Mayr's religious music, and even - though I don't collect opera - a fair bit of that side of his work.  But this concerto paled very quickly, sad to say....

But, oh well.  Some you win, some you don't.  And believe me, I've lost much more thuddingly than this one.

Assuming anybody cares, this is the version I bought:

[asin]B00000444O[/asin]

[Antoine Marchand]

I thought to post this in the thread of new releases, but then I thought this is really the proper place for this excellent novelty:

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart    
Complete Music For Two Fortepianos    
Duo Cristofori: Penelope Crawford and Nancy Garrett, fortepiano    
Mozart's output for two separate fortepianos is limited to a few major works: the great D major Sonata, K. 448 and the C minor Fugue, K. 426, composed in the wake of the composer's acquaintance with the Bach and Handel aficionado, Baron Gottfried van Swieten. Robert Levin's completion of the Larghetto & Allegro in E flat major supplements these works to provide a complete survey of this repertoire in exciting performances by Duo Cristofori.

http://www.musicaomnia.org/newreleases.asp

[chasmaniac]

Titz, Anton (1742-1811) - String Quartets - boy I've not thought about this composer in a while - last quote below from Gurn about 2 yrs ago!  Now own 3 volumes of these works, and starting w/ the first one this morning (added a 3rd pic of the vol. 3) -

The Titz 4s are fantastic.

[Gurn Blanston]

I thought to post this in the thread of new releases, but then I thought this is really the proper place for this excellent novelty:



http://www.musicaomnia.org/newreleases.asp

Like that! The 2 piano music has been given even shorter shrift than the 4 hands works. I liked Crawford a lot in Beethoven and Schubert, so giving her a go in Mozart should be painless. Thanks for the tip, Antonio... umm, Eric! 

[kishnevi]

I thought to post this in the thread of new releases, but then I thought this is really the proper place for this excellent novelty:



http://www.musicaomnia.org/newreleases.asp

I'm at the library, so I can't make a quick check,  but aren't at least some of these works in the van Oort set?

[SonicMan46]

I thought to post this in the thread of new releases, but then I thought this is really the proper place for this excellent novelty:

 

Thanks for posting this new release from Musica Omnia - have a lot of their discs, including a number w/ Penelope Crawford, so will add to my 'wish list'! 

Now the track listing (see attachment) and the recordings on just one disc listed as the 'Complete.....' is somewhat confusing - currently I own the older 2-CD Philips Duo offering (added pic above) w/ Ingrid Haebler et al; now the 3 works on the Crawford recording are also present w/ Haebler, but there are 7 more works on the latter's performances - not sure if these are all truly Mozart's compositions but the K. numbers are KV 19d, 381/123a, 358/186c, 497, 357/497a+500a, 501, and 521.

Exploring the Mozart Project Website which may be the most updated listing of his works, the partial answer (or more so?) are works for 4-hands (on a single piano) & those for 4 hands on two pianos.  So, would be curious what our Köchel catalogue experts might say?  Please 'chime in' - 

[Antoine Marchand]

I'm at the library, so I can't make a quick check,  but aren't at least some of these works in the van Oort set?

Yes, they are the Fugue in C minor K. 426 and the Sonata in D major K. 448 (375a).

Musica Omnia adds the Larghetto and Allegro in E-flat major, K. deest (completed by Robert Levin).