Gurn's Classical Corner

[Brian]

I don't pretend to have an answer, Brian, although I might be able to dig something up. AFAIK, it's pretty much a French thing, whether at the beginning or elsewhere. The current belief that Beethoven modeled his violin concerto and 3rd symphony on French models (they are nearly contemporaneous), seems to me to be buttressed by his Marche Funèbre, albeit in the second movement. In the first half of the 19th century, music of all genres is replete with funeral marches. Echoing life, I suppose.

Yes indeed! It was a time of many funerals across Europe.  I just listened to Kalliwoda's Fourth Symphony, which has a first-movement funeral march (of sorts...), and got curious.

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes indeed! It was a time of many funerals across Europe.  I just listened to Kalliwoda's Fourth Symphony, which has a first-movement funeral march (of sorts...), and got curious.

I think Mèhul had one, may have been the first I heard. It seems to mark the beginning of Romanticism, I don't think you can legitimately call it a 'Classic' concept. Look at Berlioz' oeuvre for a couple of examples. I'll do some research, I might have a book which will touch on it a bit. Frankly, it isn't something I have given a lot of thought about, given that the 2nd movement of Eroica is my least favorite.   

[Karl Henning]

This feels like just the sort of frequently asked question that perhaps there is a page on the Interwebs you can point me to . . . I find myself suddenly curious about the "Mozart 37^th Symphony."  What do we know about it?  OtToMH I seem to remember that the symphony itself is actually Michael Haydn's, and Mozart wrote a slow introduction to the first movement?  Is that much right?  TIA

[Gurn Blanston]

This feels like just the sort of frequently asked question that perhaps there is a page on the Interwebs you can point me to . . . I find myself suddenly curious about the "Mozart 37^th Symphony."  What do we know about it?  OtToMH I seem to remember that the symphony itself is actually Michael Haydn's, and Mozart wrote a slow introduction to the first movement?  Is that much right?  TIA

Yes, that's essentially correct. The only recording I have (there may be thousands though) is in the AAM/Hogwood Complete Mozart Symphonies box. I'll check my Zaslaw tonight for more details if there are any to add.   

[starrynight]

I think it's something Mozart just jotted off quickly, nothing like the standard of the slow introductions of the symphonies around it.  Slow introductions must have been a fashion of the time though, and it's shows Mozart in a good light as being willing to help out his friend.  He helped by passing off his violin duos to Michael Haydn as well.  That was even more generous not just in quantity of music but quality.  Then again making it sound too good might make it more obvious they weren't by Michael Haydn.  It's interesting as well in connection to Mozart's relation with the Haydns in general and how he must have felt both close to them and maybe feeling indebted to them in some way (my speculation).

[revdrdave]

I have a basic question, re: Mozart's so-called 37th symphony... If all Mozart wrote of it was a slow introduction, how did it come to be considered his 37th symphony? Was there a point in time when it was accepted that the entire piece was by Mozart?

I suppose this actually raises a bigger question for me: did Mozart ever catalog his symphonies (perhaps as part of a larger effort in cataloging all his compositions) such that he referred say, to no. 40 as "no. 40" or was it just "my G minor symphony" or "my latest symphony in G minor"? Did he, in other words, ever assign numbers to his symphonies? If he did, it raises (for me at least) the further question of how he'd have skipped from 36 to 38.

Maybe this is a better topic for the Mozart composer thread...

[Karl Henning]

The first catalogue of Mozart's works was compiled by Ludwig Alois Friedrich Ritter von Köchel, an Austrian musicologist, writer, composer, botanist and publisher; he published his catalogue in 1862 (so already more than half a century after the composer's demise).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6chel_catalogue

[revdrdave]

Yes, I know about Kochel...I was wondering more about Mozart himself... Any idea if he catalogued his works and/or numbered his symphonies?

[Cato]

I think it's something Mozart just jotted off quickly, nothing like the standard of the slow introductions of the symphonies around it...

If so, that is some opening theme to "jot off" !  Of course, we are talking about Mozart the Music Machine!  0:)

[Gurn Blanston]

I have a basic question, re: Mozart's so-called 37th symphony... If all Mozart wrote of it was a slow introduction, how did it come to be considered his 37th symphony? Was there a point in time when it was accepted that the entire piece was by Mozart?

Well yes, it was at one time attributed to Mozart. He had a copy of it, and the intro was in his handwriting. Probably everyone believed it was his. It was worth more, of course, with him now being dead and all.

I suppose this actually raises a bigger question for me: did Mozart ever catalog his symphonies (perhaps as part of a larger effort in cataloging all his compositions) such that he referred say, to no. 40 as "no. 40" or was it just "my G minor symphony" or "my latest symphony in G minor"? Did he, in other words, ever assign numbers to his symphonies? If he did, it raises (for me at least) the further question of how he'd have skipped from 36 to 38.

Maybe this is a better topic for the Mozart composer thread...

No, he never did that. After he moved to Vienna, in 1784 actually (he moved in 1781), he began keeping a book with compositions as he completed them. He would write the date and then like the first 8 bars of the part which had the most recognizable theme. Not everything made it into the book, but most things did. This is a huge help in dating late works. Before then, it is still hit and miss.

I have never heard any composer from the classic era refer to his symphonies in any sort of numeric way, or in any definitive way at all. Haydn always refers to his 'Paris' symphonies as his 'recent set of six', you are expected to know by the date what he is talking about. Mozart does write to Leopold and refer to 'the symphony I wrote for Haffner' or 'the one I wrote for Paris', but that's about it. At that time, the idea of a canonic sort of enumeration of works simply didn't exist, and so there is no hope of anything so nicely referential!   

[revdrdave]

Your response is so helpful, Gurn--thanks very much!

[starrynight]

He kept some kind of book, from what I remember it had the years of the future listed as well, up to or beyond 1800, so he was looking to compose much more.  After his death there was some edition being prepared I think and his widow tried to vet the publisher trying to pass off other people's works as his.  But obviously more investigation was needed on some works.

[Gurn Blanston]

He kept some kind of book, from what I remember it had the years of the future listed as well, up to or beyond 1800, so he was looking to compose much more.  After his death there was some edition being prepared I think and his widow tried to vet the publisher trying to pass off other people's works as his.  But obviously more investigation was needed on some works.

Yes, that's what I was referring to. He wrote on the cover or the inside flyleaf '1784 - 18__', so clearly the death was a surprise for him.

Constanze did indeed try to make as much as she could from the sale of his music. He didn't leave her anything else but children. She probably couldn't get a good price for them.   People passing off other works as those of a famous name was standard procedure in those days.   

[Gurn Blanston]

Your response is so helpful, Gurn--thanks very much!

My pleasure Dave. Glad you are interested! 

[San Antone]

George Frederick Pinto : potentially the English Mozart



As a musician he excited an extraordinary degree of admiration from well-qualified critics. Samuel Wesley said that 'a greater musical Genius has not been known'; Salomon remarked that 'if he had lived and been able to resist the allurements of society, England would have had the honour of producing a second Mozart'; J.B. Cramer, William Ayrton and others joined the chorus of enthusiasm. The chief source of their admiration seems to have been Pinto's compositions. Yet within a few years of his death, his name was almost forgotten by the public.

[North Star]

Salomon remarked that 'if he had lived and been able to resist the allurements of society, England would have had the honour of producing a second Mozart'

Thomas Linley was of course the first Mozart England produced. 

[San Antone]

Thomas Linley was of course the first Mozart England produced. 

[Florestan]

I´ve started to listen to all of Mozart´s violin sonatas in chronological order, from this set:



I am simply amazed at the high quality of the childhood sonatas. The relentless rythmic drive of the introductory allegros, the brooding, melancholy adagios and the bitter-sweet minuets/trios --- it boggles the mind that a child of 6 or 8 or 10 could have written such gorgeous music.

Needless to say, the musicmaking of Podger and Cooper is just perfectly suitable for these works. This is a desert island box.

[Gurn Blanston]

I´ve started to listen to all of Mozart´s violin sonatas in chronological order, from this set:



I am simply amazed at the high quality of the childhood sonatas. The relentless rythmic drive of the introductory allegros, the brooding, melancholy adagios and the bitter-sweet minuets/trios --- it boggles the mind that a child of 6 or 8 or 10 could have written such gorgeous music.

Needless to say, the musicmaking of Podger and Cooper is just perfectly suitable for these works. This is a desert island box.

I have that set on my wish list now, have been looking forward to it since the singles started coming out, 2 fine artists there! That's an interesting thing about Mozart; even his juvenilia sounds equal to the adult efforts of many of his contemporaries. He sort of skipped over a few stages in development, it seems! 

[Florestan]

That's an interesting thing about Mozart; even his juvenilia sounds equal to the adult efforts of many of his contemporaries. He sort of skipped over a few stages in development, it seems! 

There is no doubt he was the greatest musical child prodigy that ever lived, period. KV 6-15 and 26-31 are a glorious testimony to that.