Wagner's Valhalla

[MishaK]

To support your point, and Mensch's, in the repertory report in the Met database, 5 of the 20 most performed operas are by Wagner: http://archives.metoperafamily.org/archives/frame.htm

Thanks! That's the one I meant. Goes to show that putting on Wagner is often simply a matter of funds and availability of top singers.

[Bill H.]

Which gets us back to the issue of productions: these days the only way to really do it and not lose money in the process is either a) spend all your money on good singers so that they are the big box office draw, and use just a very sparse minimalist staging that costs little money; or b) make a visual spectacular (a la La Fura dels Baus), so that the extra musical action is the big draw. The latter is a much bigger financial gamble. But just making traditional stagings with meticluously detailed realistic romantic stagings *and* pay for expensive singers just isn't going to work.

How about "concert" performances?  The most well-marketed recent one that comes to mind is the Elder/Halle Gotterdammerung.  Probably was a sell-out for the performances that were done, but I wonder if they are making back their investment on sales of the recording (not sure if a DVD was issued).   And I thought there was a Walkure in the works as well.

[Scarpia]

I remember reading a long time ago that Wagner referred to "Tannhäuser" as "meine schlechteste Oper." I would agree, except for "Rienzi." But hardly anybody pays that one any attention outside of the overture.

After Rheingold, Tannhauser is my favorite of Dickie's creations.     I've never heard Lohengrin, Dutchman, or Rienzi.

[AndyD.]

I haven't read all 72 pages, so not sure if this has been asked: What would you say is Wagner's worst opera? From his more mature operas I would probably pick Lohengrin, I kind of dislike Lohengrin and Elsa... on the other hand Telramund and Ortrud (especially Ortrud) are so fascinating that they kind of overshadow them. That been said, I still love Lohengrin, most of it's libretto and magnificent music. And the first scene of act 2 is so close to ideal music drama that it could easily be part of Tristan.

I agree with most of this. I love Lohengrin both for its gorgeous prelude to Act 1, and the entire second act is absolutely awe-inspiring to me. I rarely watch the rest of it. As for it being his worse mature, etc., that's a really hard thing for me to contemplate, as every opera I've heard from him has transcendant moments, at least for me. I haven't heard Die Feen or Das Liebesverbot. Just everything from Rienzi.

[karlhenning]

. . . No "longueurs", just taut drama beginning to end.

Maybe Wagnerians don't go for that sort of thing.

(* ducks on way out *)

[MishaK]

How about "concert" performances?  The most well-marketed recent one that comes to mind is the Elder/Halle Gotterdammerung.  Probably was a sell-out for the performances that were done, but I wonder if they are making back their investment on sales of the recording (not sure if a DVD was issued).   And I thought there was a Walkure in the works as well.

Classical recordings don't really make money these days. Depending on what contract you have with the musicians, they ususally barely break even. Some in-house labels, I'm told, don't pay anything to their musicians until sales recoup the production costs, and few discs do that. But that sort of thing can't be done with the contracts major US orchestras have, which still have royalties clauses dating from the 60s. I don't think it's much different from DVDs. But primarily, recordings serve as calling cards and PR for the performers. Unless they become bestsellers, they don't really make money these days. Consider that most discs sell in the mid four-digit quantities at a retail price of around $17 and you can calculate after the retailer's and distributor's cut and production costs that there is little left for the performers.

[AndyD.]

Maybe Wagnerians don't go for that sort of thing.

(* ducks on way out *)

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Ooooh, come on! Lohengrin is the best. No "longueurs", just taut drama beginning to end. Lohengrin and Elsa as characters are no weaker than any of his other heroic tragic couples: Siegmund/Sieglinde, Siegfried/Brünnhilde, Tristan/Isolde. All of his lead couples are to an extent less characterized than some of their antagonists or other charcaters, because the real emotional and psychological drama is often not with the lead characters but with characters like Telramund and Ortrud or Wotan etc. etc.

I don't deny it:Lohengrin is a great work. To tell you the truth, sometimes my least favorite mature wagner opera switches between Tannhäuser and fliegende Holländer (from his early operas I think das Liebesverbot is weakest, even though french grand opera-like Rienzi is even further from music drama) but I still love them all. Maybe because Elsa is somewhat too passive. Senta, Eva and Elizabeth are also, but Lohengrin seems kind of "superman". True, other young males, especially Siegfried and Parsifal are also portrayed kind of that way, but Siegfried is eventually killed and Parsifal is kind of Chuck Norris who can beat all the fallen knights in Klingsor's garden and even the freaking spear refuses to hit him... but he is still so naively humane, even after Kundry's kiss. Although naturally even Lohengrin is not invincible. With Siegmund/Sieglinde I kind of agree, because Siegmund is my least favorite Ring character (even Brünnhilde annoys me in Götterdämmerung at some points). And now don't misunderstand me: Character of Lohengrin has his humane moments also, (plus I can't deny I love characters who just kicks everybody's ass) actually I wouldn't say he is not humane: just less humane than some others (and it still kind of annoys me Telramund din't manage to kick his ass while he was making out with Elsa ). And almost everytime Lohengrin sings "in fernem Land"-monologue, I am crying manly tears.

I guess by "lead characters" you meant only couples because I still see Wotan as the lead character of the Ring, even though he is absent in Götterdämmerung... Although you may have different opinion

Maybe Wagnerians don't go for that sort of thing.

(* ducks on way out *)

I appreciate both quickly and slowly advancing drama.

[(poco) Sforzando]

After Rheingold, Tannhauser is my favorite of Dickie's creations.     I've never heard Lohengrin, Dutchman, or Rienzi.

Interesting. Actually I don't even have a recording of Tannhäuser (recs, anyone?) Of the "early three" still in the standard repertoire, I most favor Holländer, despite its obvious unevenness in style. On my drives to and from work today I had the second act of Götterdämmerung playing, and for sheer tautness and intensity of drama, I can't think of anything in Wagner to compare.

[Scarpia]

Interesting. Actually I don't even have a recording of Tannhäuser (recs, anyone?) Of the "early three" still in the standard repertoire, I most favor Holländer, despite its obvious unevenness in style. On my drives to and from work today I had the second act of Götterdämmerung playing, and for sheer tautness and intensity of drama, I can't think of anything in Wagner to compare.

I don't have an audio recording either.  I have two DVDs, both of which I like.

[asin]B001A5REB2[/asin]

[asin]B000EQHHK6[/asin]

[MishaK]

Actually I don't even have a recording of Tannhäuser (recs, anyone?)

This one is quite good.

[asin]B00005UW19[/asin]

[(poco) Sforzando]

This one is quite good.

[asin]B00005UW19[/asin]

Thanks. I've heard good things about that one, and I'd rather have a CD.

BTW, thanks also for the Harnoncourt Bruckner 9. I'm always skeptical towards H based on some of the fussy mannerisms he tends to fall into, but there was nothing like that in this direct and powerful 9th. And the lecture was most educational.

[jlaurson]

This one is quite good.


R. Wagner (1813 – 1883)
Tannhäuser
Barenboim / Staatskapelle Berlin
Eaglen, Meier, Seifert, Pape, Hampson et al.
Telarc

It's terrific!!! And it's my favorite version: Dresden-Paris Hybrid.
Like the rival Sinopoli recording (DG, Paris Version, 1989), it benefits from state-of-the-art sound quality and a stupendous cast. The female leads Jeane Eaglen and Waltraut Meier might be the best on record (as far as modern recordings are concerned--and you don't have to watch Eaglen, another benefit.) and Peter Seifert, Rene Pape and Thomas Hampson don't need to shy away from any competition, either. Like Cosima I prefer the Dresden version without the excessive Venusberg-mystery-music - and Barenboim's subtle amalgamation seems to combine the best of both worlds.

[Walther von Stolzing]

Of his mature works, my least favorite is probably Tannhauser. Mostly because outside of the Venus bacchanal, and a few other moments here and there, I find much of the music of act 1 to be rather uninteresting. Der fliegende Hollander, while very much a transitional work, still for me has great tunes throughout and is more cohesive thematically. Lohengrin pretty much blows both out of the water IMO, and is the culmination of everything he was attempting to do in those two operas.

Still, Tannhauser is very very good. My favorite recording of it is the Solti. I know the Sinopoli has it's supporters as well, for good reason, but I've never found Domingo to be all that convincing with his characterizations in the Wagnerian roles I've heard him in.

[mjwal]

I don't deny it:Lohengrin is a great work. To tell you the truth, sometimes my least favorite mature wagner opera switches between Tannhäuser and fliegende Holländer (from his early operas I think das Liebesverbot is weakest, even though french grand opera-like Rienzi is even further from music drama) but I still love them all. Maybe because Elsa is somewhat too passive. Senta, Eva and Elizabeth are also, but Lohengrin seems kind of "superman". True, other young males, especially Siegfried and Parsifal are also portrayed kind of that way, but Siegfried is eventually killed and Parsifal is kind of Chuck Norris who can beat all the fallen knights in Klingsor's garden and even the freaking spear refuses to hit him... but he is still so naively humane, even after Kundry's kiss. Although naturally even Lohengrin is not invincible. With Siegmund/Sieglinde I kind of agree, because Siegmund is my least favorite Ring character (even Brünnhilde annoys me in Götterdämmerung at some points). And now don't misunderstand me: Character of Lohengrin has his humane moments also, (plus I can't deny I love characters who just kicks everybody's ass) actually I wouldn't say he is not humane: just less humane than some others (and it still kind of annoys me Telramund din't manage to kick his ass while he was making out with Elsa ). And almost everytime Lohengrin sings "in fernem Land"-monologue, I am crying manly tears.

I guess by "lead characters" you meant only couples because I still see Wotan as the lead character of the Ring, even though he is absent in Götterdämmerung... Although you may have different opinion

I appreciate both quickly and slowly advancing drama.

I can sort of empathise with some of what you are saying, but I find it very odd that Siegmund is your least favourite character, considering that he is not a superman but a gentleman who puts Sieglinde first to the extent that he willingly renounces eternal life in Valhalla (Brünnhilde can hardly believe her ears): this strikes me as the noblest gesture of any figure in the whole cycle ("Discuss, providing evidence for your opinion"...  ) He also has some of the most wonderful vocal passages e.g. "Zauberfest" etc. - As to Lohengrin: if he is a superman then only one who, like Superman himself, is subject to a crippling twist of fate (the continual threat by Kryptonite - rock that is at the origin of his own existence - in Superman's case) - he cannot freely choose Elsa but is bound to to a rule ("Nie sollst du mich befragen..."), which makes him a tragic hero at the end - at least apparently so, because in fact the law of the Wagnerian artist is to shun those who would involve him/her in the trammels of social existence (making money, marriage, kids) for the sake of his art; and Lohengrin must in fact have known in advance that Elsa would ask him after hearing the prohibition - he was after all the son of Parsifal, who knew all about feminine wiles and managed to escape both his mother and Kundry. That Lohengrin is a tricky so-and-so - it is no accident that his name is so close to Loge ("wabernde Lohe"), the ur-trickster. (Yes, I know his name is a corruption of Garin le Loherain, Garin of Lorraine, rather a bloodthirsty type, but Wagner didn't give a fig for correct etymologies). As for Elsa - for a passive girl she is pretty determined - making up a redemptive dream "on the spot", showing compassion to the woman who conspired against her, both holding on to her belief in a "Glück ohne Reu'" (happiness without regrets/repentance) and insisting on Lohengrin's full revelation of his identity. You might call her a "passive aggressive", but that makes her pretty interesting, no? All this makes Lohengrin's final farewell somewhat ambivalent in my book - if it is moving, then in the way that a declaration by a tricky SOB (who is his mother?) with paranoid tendencies might be moving. Or, the Swan-knight is a kind of Wagner-like magus-guru, come to liberate Elsa from the trammels of earthly illusion.

[MishaK]

As to Lohengrin: if he is a superman then only one who, like Superman himself, is subject to a crippling twist of fate (the continual threat by Kryptonite - rock that is at the origin of his own existence - in Superman's case) - he cannot freely choose Elsa but is bound to to a rule ("Nie sollst du mich befragen..."), which makes him a tragic hero at the end - at least apparently so, because in fact the law of the Wagnerian artist is to shun those who would involve him/her in the trammels of social existence (making money, marriage, kids) for the sake of his art; and Lohengrin must in fact have known in advance that Elsa would ask him after hearing the prohibition - he was after all the son of Parsifal, who knew all about feminine wiles and managed to escape both his mother and Kundry.

Very well put. In Barenboim's recording the way Peter Seiffert acts that "nie sollst du mich befragen" is hairraising, exactly because he gets what you describe here. When he repeats the command to Elsa after she all to eagerly accepted this ridiculous demand the first time around, he gives it an edge and intensity, as if he were really saying: "do you have even the slightest idea what you're getting yourself into, you fool?" It is so harsh, it almost carries within itself the anticipation of disappointment.

[MishaK]

Listening to this now, which arrived in the mail yesterday, thanks to Sarge's recommendation.

[asin]B001OBT3M0[/asin]

Stunning!  Never expected such great direction from Bychkov or such flawless playing from the WDR (including the on- and off-stage fanfares which are so often notoriously out of tune). I expected Botha to be terrific, having just seen him live here in Chicago in the same role. Pieczonka, Youn and Struckmann are all very positive surprises. Though I have to disagree with Sarge on Ortrud. I don't find Lang sufficiently seductive or evil. An amazon reviewer described her as "lightweight". I agree. She simply lacks edge. Also, this has got to be the one Lohengrin recording in which the entire cast has just stellar German diction (despite a Korean King Heinrich, a South African Lohengrin and a Canadian Elsa!), well maybe apart from the (German) Ortrud at times. Otherwise, you can practically toss the libretto.

[jlaurson]

...and Lohengrin must in fact have known in advance that Elsa would ask him after hearing the prohibition - he was after all the son of Parsifal, who knew all about feminine wiles and managed to escape both his mother and Kundry...

Evidently not enough to escape Lohengrin's mother, though. That family is flawed through and through. :-)

[MishaK]

Is anyone familiar with this Tristan?

[asin]B000QGDZCI[/asin]

There was an earlier Opera d'Oro issue of bootleg of another 1974 (or the same?) Bayreuth performance that was said to have atrocious sound. Wondering if this one is any better. I've heard great things about Ligendza's Isolde, not to mention Kleiber's conducting.

[mjwal]

I remember hearing that Bayreuth Kleiber Tristan performance on the radio at the time - as I remember, it was Brilioth who fell short (compared with, say, Suthaus, especially in Furtwängler's 1947 performance). - To revert to Lohengrin - how does the Bychkov, which coincidentally I had wanted to ask about anyway, compare with the Barenboim for insight and performance? I read about the latter that Elsa's voice was not easily distinguishable from Ortrud's, which would bother me a bit, otherwise I might get it, as it is very cheap on amazon.de. My two references for this opera are: the 1942 recording with the Ortrud of Margarete Klose, who is the all-time world-beater in this role, and the '58 Cluytens with the superb Konya as Lohengrin. I would like a more recent recording with excellent orchestral transparency, but I do need an Elsa who is as heartfelt as Maria Müller in the 1942 recording, especially in the "es gibt ein Glück" passage, and sounds as different from Ortrud as she does from Klose. The greatest Elsa of all time has to have been Lotte Lehmann, to judge by the brief excerpt she recorded.
As to Lohengrin's mother, Jens - well, seemingly Parsifal did escape her, she doesn't appear at all in Wagner's Grail universe, not a mention much less an appearance (unlike in Wolfram's Parzifal). Not unless she was one of the flower-girls, who slipped him her number en passant in Act 2. But your point about the family is well-taken.