Wagner's Valhalla

[Peregrine]

The Ring is a special case, probably in several respects, but what i am thinking of here is in line with what Alan describes above. Wagner provided musical motifs. These can refer to a character, the river, a sword, gold, love, blood....and so on. Despite tying himself to these motifs, he was able to use them to weave a rich carpet of music where things being referred to, or even thought about by the characters, are layered in front of you. If you learn some of the themes it provides an even richer ride along the Rhine.

Prior to Wagner, opera composers used the orchestra largely as background and opera generally ran along 'numbers' such as.....recit, aria, recit aria, ensemble, recit, duet. Wagner brought the orchestra forward and in a sense sank the voices into it. It is a protagonist and is telling us things about the story, not just providing a decent background. Latterly Verdi also provided through-written scores that to an extent did away with the numbers, though no one took it to the kind of extreme as did Wagner.

I think time spent with the music somehow dissolves the boring patches. You become acclimatised to the pace. I do still occasionally grind my teeth when the same thoughts are expounded on the third occasion; but Wagner Time is not like other time. You learn largely to slow down to his heart rate. That is probably harder for us now when we are so used to fast editing in visual entertainment. But the events in the Ring are deceptive. They are not the main issues Wagner was interested in. He was more looking at how those events affect his characters and the world they live in. So the famous highlights have lured people in and deceived us that the stuff in between the highlights is filler, up market recit, to get us from one exciting moment to the next. No! Rather they are vocal symphonies where Wagner found a way to code it all so that the orchestral writing did not remain largely abstract.

For me the most addictive of Wagner's works is Tristan und Isolde. It can act like a narcotic. You enter a kind of dream. You experience life, not merely a story. He teaches you about life. So does Mozart and Bizet and sometimes Verdi, but with Wagner you have to give yourself to it rather than expecting it to yield all its fruits up front.

Mike

Fabulous post!

[Opus106]

Potentially luscious stuff



The Cube's making a come-back



Mmm... Frankfurter



The what?! Yuck!

[DavidRoss]

Here's a still:



The best part of this inventive staging is when Siegfried roasts hot dogs on a stick in the ring of fire surrounding Brünnhilde.

[Wendell_E]

The what?! Yuck!

And this particular "colon" has had an operation to shorten its length to seven hours, "in an edited version authorised by the Wagner family".   

[Jaakko Keskinen]

I recently went to watch Tristan at Finnish National Opera. I loved it, singers were awesome, especially Matti Salminen as Marke, Tommi Hakala as Kurwenal, Waltteri Torikka as Melot and Robert Dean Smith as Tristan. Now don't think me as sexist, I loved  Brangäne and Isolde also but to me this performance was ruled by main male singers. What I especially loved was how much Torikka was able to get out of Melot's somewhat small yet convincing role. When he drew his sword in "duel" against Tristan he was so badass. To me despite the cries "Hei unser Held Tristan" the biggest badasses in this opera will always be Melot and Kurwenal. Btw, in this production Kurwenal didn't die fighting Marke's men but stabbed himself. Matti Salminen also amazed me with his still powerful, thunder-like voice. Now you might say that Marke is not supposed to sound like that, but trust me: in this case it worked!

Orchestra was outstanding but unfortunately few my favorite passages were either played too quietly or quickly/slowly, for ex. the climax of the love scene in act 2 just before Kurwenal bursts in, during the words "endlos ewig, ein-bewusst". The set was somewhat simplified, yet convincing: the dominating elements were sun and moon, which of course represents daily world of honor, duty, etc. while moon represents night, love of Tristan and Isolde.

[kaergaard]

I recently went to watch Tristan at Finnish National Opera. I loved it, singers were awesome, especially Matti Salminen as Marke, Tommi Hakala as Kurwenal, Waltteri Torikka as Melot and Robert Dean Smith as Tristan. Now you might say that Marke is not supposed to sound like that, but trust me: in this case it worked!

Work it does indeed! I have the Virgin Classics DVD of the Tristan und Isolde with Matti Salminen as König Marke and had been convinced that René Pape owns this role. Not any more! Might have something to with the director - this production is by Patrice Chéreau - but the way Salminen floors Melot shows his great acting talent. It's the performance with Ian Storey as Tristan, worth adding to any Tristan collection.

[Parsifal]

I apologise. I've had a bad day, and was too sensitive. Rather than jump down your throat I should have explained more carefully that I was trying to describe my own personal response to the bringing together of such trite soap-opera visuals with such great music, and such a profound myth. I can't conceive of anything they could have done in the intervening Siegfried that could reconcile me to that particular grotesque juxtaposition. (I'm aware that others may not encounter this as a problem.)

Gracious apology accepted.

I think we are approaching the music from different origins.  I don't find the underlying mythology of the Ring convincing.  I never quite resonate with what Wotan, the Gods, the Rheingold, is supposed to symbolize or how it relates to the plight of man.  However, there is glorious music and the drama that at least makes sense when taken piecemeal.  For instance, in the first act of Walkure there is the fugitive who takes shelter in a house only to find that is the home of his enemy.   The enemy is betrayed by his wife, who comes to the aid of the fugitive.  Dramatically and musically, that makes sense to me, Wotan, the Rheinmaidens, Valhalla and the Norns notwithstanding. 

I guess that's why I enjoy the Copenhagen ring.  Each scene is dramatized in a way that makes works for me, even if the mythology is compromised.

[Elgarian]

I think we are approaching the music from different origins.  I don't find the underlying mythology of the Ring convincing.  I never quite resonate with what Wotan, the Gods, the Rheingold, is supposed to symbolize or how it relates to the plight of man.  However, there is glorious music and the drama that at least makes sense when taken piecemeal.  For instance, in the first act of Walkure there is the fugitive who takes shelter in a house only to find that is the home of his enemy.   The enemy is betrayed by his wife, who comes to the aid of the fugitive.  Dramatically and musically, that makes sense to me, Wotan, the Rheinmaidens, Valhalla and the Norns notwithstanding. 

I guess that's why I enjoy the Copenhagen ring.  Each scene is dramatized in a way that makes works for me, even if the mythology is compromised.

Yes, it very much looks as though these differences of approach are at the root of the differences in what we can tolerate. I think right from the start the mythology was vying for equal weight with the music, for me - in the sense that the two coming together make for a uniquely satisfying whole. I had one of those perception shifts the moment I encountered CS Lewis's observation that the primary need is not  to understand a myth, but to taste it; immerse oneself in it. That profoundly affected my attitude to myth and folk legend in general, and Wagner in particular. On this approach, it becomes far more important to experience Brunnhilde riding into the funeral pyre than to figure out, rationally, what it might mean. So the trick (at least, for me) is to go for the ride without really thinking too much about 'meaning' or about what I might think of as acceptable normal dramatic activity. I try to surrender to the composite entity of 'myth and music'; and I find I can only do that intermittently in the Copenhagen Ring.

[Karl Henning]

Yes, it very much looks as though these differences of approach are at the root of the differences in what we can tolerate. I think right from the start the mythology was vying for equal weight with the music, for me - in the sense that the two coming together make for a uniquely satisfying whole. I had one of those perception shifts the moment I encountered CS Lewis's observation that the primary need is not  to understand a myth, but to taste it; immerse oneself in it. That profoundly affected my attitude to myth and folk legend in general, and Wagner in particular. On this approach, it becomes far more important to experience Brunnhilde riding into the funeral pyre than to figure out, rationally, what it might mean. So the trick (at least, for me) is to go for the ride without really thinking too much about 'meaning' or about what I might think of as acceptable normal dramatic activity. I try to surrender to the composite entity of 'myth and music'; and I find I can only do that intermittently in the Copenhagen Ring.

Excellent point.

I might add (for all that RW was keen to distance his work from mere opera) that in opera generally, an openness to experience the work for what it is, while resisting the intellectual impulse to analyze and evaluate, is de rigueur.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Yes, it very much looks as though these differences of approach are at the root of the differences in what we can tolerate. I think right from the start the mythology was vying for equal weight with the music, for me - in the sense that the two coming together make for a uniquely satisfying whole. I had one of those perception shifts the moment I encountered CS Lewis's observation that the primary need is not  to understand a myth, but to taste it; immerse oneself in it. That profoundly affected my attitude to myth and folk legend in general, and Wagner in particular. On this approach, it becomes far more important to experience Brunnhilde riding into the funeral pyre than to figure out, rationally, what it might mean. So the trick (at least, for me) is to go for the ride without really thinking too much about 'meaning' or about what I might think of as acceptable normal dramatic activity. I try to surrender to the composite entity of 'myth and music'; and I find I can only do that intermittently in the Copenhagen Ring.

About what it takes to enjoy a Spielberg movie.

[Karl Henning]

Now, wait a cotton-pickin' minute, fella . . . .

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Not that I'm not awed at Spielberg's talent at suspending belief.

[Karl Henning]

Agreed. But sometimes, the sap just runs too high.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Yep. BTW, Karl, recognize my avatar?

[Karl Henning]

I don't believe I do . . . .

[jlaurson]

I don't believe I do . . . .

Don't think music... think 20th century painter! Think naked ladies doing a Ring a Ring o' Roses...

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Don't think music... think 20th century painter! Think naked ladies doing a Ring a Ring o' Roses...

Yep.

[Karl Henning]

Oh! I recognize him, now.

It's a canvas you must see in the space, to believe it!

[Karl Henning]

Don't think music...

Thanks. I was half-thinking, "That might be Koechlin right after an annual beard-trim . . . ."

[Parsifal]

Thanks. I was half-thinking, "That might be Koechlin right after an annual beard-trim . . . ."

Now that someone is gone, it is ok to like Koechlin again, it would appear.