The Bach Cantatas

[Antoine Marchand]

Oh, we don't disagree that much over Leusink. Certainly more even than Rilling... and I don't mind the patch-and-record style in which is was made. It's certainly better than its reputation... but it's also not top-tier. If I prefer Rilling then that's only because in the Rilling-style I can't readily find anything else whereas in the Leusink-style (i.e. HIP) I can, and considerably better. Like Koopman. Or Herreweghe, for I do like that beautician. :-) (Suzuki not quite so much yet; if I need aggressively HIP I adore the 1-year cycle of Kuijken on Accent SACDs.)

I would say our tastes are not that disimilar in this field, Jens. I think the more significant differences are regarding Rilling (I own his complete cycle, but I don't like it at all) and maybe Suzuki. Regarding the latter it happens to me something weird. When I talk/write about his performances I'm usually rather critic; but when I listen to something of his discs, I find a lot of moments of overwhelming beauty. Well, I suppose I'm not always a fair man. 

[chasmaniac]

I don't know how you look so I imagined that cat in your avatar (with that expression) said those words...

That's Leo, pictured pining illicitly for some BWV 199 - Herze swimming im Blut.

[Mandryka]

I would say our tastes are not that disimilar in this field, Jens. I think the more significant differences are regarding Rilling (I own his complete cycle, but I don't like it at all) and maybe Suzuki. Regarding the latter it happens to me something weird. When I talk/write about his performances I'm usually rather critic; but when I listen to something of his discs, I find a lot of moments of overwhelming beauty. Well, I suppose I'm not always a fair man. 

Do you like the discs with Yoshikazu Mera?

[Antoine Marchand]

Do you like the discs with Yoshikazu Mera?

Yes, I have enjoyed very much his collaborations with Suzuki. He has an outstandingly pure voice. 

[Mandryka]

Yes, I have enjoyed very much his collaborations with Suzuki. He has an outstandingly pure voice.

One of those Suzuki recordings with Mera -- vol. 8 with BWV 22 and 23 - is one of my favourite cantata CDs.

[Clever Hans]

Actually I think the Leonhardt and Harnoncourt set is musically the deepest, with the most textual emphasis, and usually the most satisfying, and has the finest adult soloists in Equiluz and van Egmond.

Koopman is lighter in expression and a little slack in conducting, although with cleaner execution. Certainly not overdone, however.

Compare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RfIaTKCTHVM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0pRhMhAWEUw

Suzuki I find consistently more expressive and well balanced in voices than Koopman but still a little uniform and perhaps too reflective sometimes.

Herreweghe's style softened around the edges over the years, which can be heard most clearly when you compare his early passion and b minor mass with the later versions. His earlier cantata recordings are especially great and don't lack polish.
One could see that Harnoncourt's 2nd matthew passion is more molded and flexible in line but without the same frankness and "right" casting, although both evangelists are of the highest order.

Gardiner is very impressive from the standpoint of live execution and some wonderful non-english musicians. On the other hand, I think his style, while dramatic, is a bit slick, and the pilgrimage strikes me as more of a marathon, with a very demanding conductor. Maybe for excitement he misses the liturgical side of things. But these stylistic failings are much more apparent in his inflexible Beethoven set than in the cantatas I've heard, and listeners seem to enjoy them for good reason.

Some people have found the OVPP phenomenon pretty ridiculous, including Leonhardt and Harnoncourt, who both cite how musicians can and do read the same part, for example.
I don't see anything wrong with OVPP, particularly in certain early cantatas, but my impression is that there's no direct evidence of authenticity and the practice is a bit of a fetish.

As Harnoncourt loves to point out, relevance to our time and expressive means is really what matters, the message and content of the music over execution.

[Marc]

I agree; that guy is a weak point.

IMHO, Buwalda is one of most consistent performers in this integral. But if one doesn't like his voice and timbre, then there's a problem, I understand that. But at least he knows what he is singing (about). Ruth Holton doesn't, she's sounding flat and unsure and her knowledge of German seems to be quite below level. No wonder she was replaced by Marjon Strijk, who's doing a better job. Apparantly, Holton was much better coached during her Gardiner recordings. That's the main problem with this Leusink cycle: he didn't have enough time to rehearse and coach. I mean: 200 cantates to be recorded in one single year! It's a rushed production, with, in many performances, an ugly screaming choir (especially the sopranos & tenors: they don't blend with the rest) and an ugly screaming tenor Knut Shoch as low points.

[Marc]

Actually I think the Leonhardt and Harnoncourt set is musically the deepest, with the most textual emphasis, and usually the most satisfying, and has the finest adult soloists in Equiluz and van Egmond.

Agreement here.

Suzuki I find consistently more expressive and well balanced in voices than Koopman but still a little uniform and perhaps too reflective sometimes.

Again I agree.

Herreweghe's style softened around the edges over the years, which can be heard most clearly when you compare his early passion and b minor mass with the later versions. His earlier cantata recordings are especially great and don't lack polish.

And again!

One could see that Harnoncourt's 2nd matthew passion is more molded and flexible in line but without the same frankness and "right" casting, although both evangelists are of the highest order.

Gardiner is very impressive from the standpoint of live execution and some wonderful non-english musicians. On the other hand, I think his style, while dramatic, is a bit slick, and the pilgrimage strikes me as more of a marathon, with a very demanding conductor. Maybe for excitement he misses the liturgical side of things. But these stylistic failings are much more apparent in his inflexible Beethoven set than in the cantatas I've heard, and listeners seem to enjoy them for good reason.

Some people have found the OVPP phenomenon pretty ridiculous, including Leonhardt and Harnoncourt, who both cite how musicians can and do read the same part, for example.
I don't see anything wrong with OVPP, particularly in certain early cantatas, but my impression is that there's no direct evidence of authenticity and the practice is a bit of a fetish.

As Harnoncourt loves to point out, relevance to our time and expressive means is really what matters, the message and content of the music over execution.

And again!
Who are you?

[Clever Hans]

Agreement here.

Again I agree.

And again!

And again!
Who are you?

!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBZSjiNy110

[Antoine Marchand]

IMHO, Buwalda is one of most consistent performers in this integral. But if one doesn't like his voice and timbre, then there's a problem, I understand that.

It's a relief. We agree about that voice and timbre are not minor things in a singer. 

But at least he knows what he is singing (about). Ruth Holton doesn't, she's sounding flat and unsure and her knowledge of German seems to be quite below level. No wonder she was replaced by Marjon Strijk, who's doing a better job.

Oh no, the theme of the replacements... again.

[Marc]

It's a relief. We agree about that voice and timbre are not minor things in a singer. 
Oh no, the theme of the replacements... again.

Sorry, didn't know the 'theme' was discussed before.

[Antoine Marchand]

Sorry, didn't know the 'theme' was discussed before.

Yes, I recall when you speculated that Barbara Schlick had also been "separated" from Koopman's project because of a similar sort of "technical incompetence" (aged voice in her case, IIRC). Anyway, I like Holton's interpretations and her pure and "childish" tone.

[Mandryka]

Actually I think the Leonhardt and Harnoncourt set is musically the deepest, with the most textual emphasis, and usually the most satisfying, and has the finest adult soloists in Equiluz and van Egmond.

When the Leonhardt and Harnoncourt set first came out on CD I started to collect it. I remember being gob-smacked by the freshness and commitment of the music making, and by the way the sounds, the combinations of the voices and the instruments, the sonic balances, makes for something so very tasty and tangy.  I like boys' voices. You know, at their best, the performers communicate their pleasure in music making. I find that sort of thing really valuable, irresistible.

I'm writing this because I just played BWV 12 and BWV 25. That same feeling that I had about  30 years ago or more for that recording is still there. I really love those  performances. 

[The new erato]

When the Leonhardt and Harnoncourt set first came out on CD I started to collect it. I remember being gob-smacked by the freshness and commitment of the music making, and by the way the sounds, the combinations of the voices and the instruments, the sonic balances, makes for something so very tasty and tangy.  I like boys' voices. You know, at their best, the performers communicate their pleasure in music making. I find that sort of thing really valuable, irresistible.

I'm writing this because I just played BWV 12 and BWV 25. That same feeling that I had about  30 years ago or more for that recording is still there. I really love those  performances.

This is very well put, an even though this set has certainly been exceeded technically, its freshness and commitment, and joy of discovery, still for me makes it a first recommendation.

[Antoine Marchand]

Yesterday I was listening to the Magnificat in D major, performed by Rilling and his gang from the Hänssler Edition (vol. 73). All in all an extremely beautiful disc, very well played and sung. It also includes: Suscepit Israel puerum suum BWV 1082; Aus der Tiefen BWV 246/40a;  Arioso aus einem Passions-Pasticcio: So heb ich denn mein Auge sehnlich auf BWV 1088 & Psalm 51 BWV 1083.

Unfortunately, the last track (28) is defective. 

Is this only a problem of my copy?

[kishnevi]

Yesterday I was listening to the Magnificat in D major, performed by Rilling and his gang from the Hänssler Edition (vol. 73). All in all an extremely beautiful disc, very well played and sung. It also includes: Suscepit Israel puerum suum BWV 1082; Aus der Tiefen BWV 246/40a;  Arioso aus einem Passions-Pasticcio: So heb ich denn mein Auge sehnlich auf BWV 1088 & Psalm 51 BWV 1083.

Unfortunately, the last track (28) is defective. 

Is this only a problem of my copy?

What's the defect?
I just played that specific track on my rinky dink CD player cum alarm clock, and didn't hear anything wrong.
If I can help further, PM me.

[Marc]

!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBZSjiNy110

Instead of your boat, my boat it should be your Bach, my Bach!

[Coopmv]

IMHO, Buwalda is one of most consistent performers in this integral. But if one doesn't like his voice and timbre, then there's a problem, I understand that. But at least he knows what he is singing (about). Ruth Holton doesn't, she's sounding flat and unsure and her knowledge of German seems to be quite below level. No wonder she was replaced by Marjon Strijk, who's doing a better job. Apparantly, Holton was much better coached during her Gardiner recordings. That's the main problem with this Leusink cycle: he didn't have enough time to rehearse and coach. I mean: 200 cantates to be recorded in one single year! It's a rushed production, with, in many performances, an ugly screaming choir (especially the sopranos & tenors: they don't blend with the rest) and an ugly screaming tenor Knut Shoch as low points.

Is the Leusink cycle included in its entirety in the BC Bach set?  I bought that set a number of years ago.  I do feel the singing was uneven.  Ruth Holton has a beautiful voice from what I have heard from a number of Bach Cantatas recordings she made with John Eliot Gardiner.  As you said, most English soloists do not quite have a strong command of the German language, which can be a handicap when it comes to singing Bach Cantatas.

[mc ukrneal]

What discs would you recommend for a focus on chorus and less on soloists? I realize that many had a mixture, but would be interested in starting from the choral side.

[jlaurson]

What discs would you recommend for a focus on chorus and less on soloists? I realize that many had a mixture, but would be interested in starting from the choral side.

Well, it'd be a selection of certain cantatas with particularly wonderful choruses and/or chorales... and presumably in a performance that is not ultra-HIP (OVPP), because no matter how gorgeous the performance, the sense of chorus-ness is rather missing. And these things were, after all, singalongs or quasi-singalongs.

BWV 56 - Ich will den Kreuzstab
BWV 29 - Wir danken dir Gott
BWV 61 - Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland
BWV 12 - Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen
BWV 93 - Wer nur den lieben Gott
BWV 38 - Aus tiefer Not schrei' ich zu dir
BWV 78 - Jesu, der du meine Seele
BWV 124 - Meinem Jesum lass' ich nicht
BWV 39 - Brich dem Hungrigen dein Brot
BWV 68 - Also hat Gott die Welt geliebt
BWV 104 - Du Hirte Israel, höre!
BWV 6 - Bleib' bei uns
BWV 148 - Bringet dem Herrn Ehre seines Namens
BWV 64 - Sehet, welch eine Liebe
BWV 111 - Was mein Gott will, das g'scheh' allzeit
BWV 67 - Halt im Gedächtnis
BWV 127 - Herr Jesu Christ, wahr'r Mensch und Gott
BWV 44 - Sie werden euch in den Bann tun
BWV 121 - Christum wir sollen loben
BWV 137 - Lobe den Herren
BWV 126 - Erhalt' uns, Herr, bei deinem Wort
BWV 1 - Wie schön leuchtet
BWV 129 - Gelobet sei der Herr, mein Gott
BWV 65 - Sie werden aus Saba alle kommen
BWV 171 - Gott, wie dein Name
BWV 34 - O ewiges Feuer, o Ursprung der Liebe
BWV 135 - Ach Herr, mich armen Sünder

These are among the most attractive cantatas for chorus-lovers, I'd say... the four bold ones being particular favorites of mine.

If you seek out recordings that contain as many of those as possible... and for good choruses I'd recommend:

Anything by Herreweghe, anything by Koopman,
almost anything by Rilling (altogether more old fashioned) or -- though hard to get individually -- Karl Richter -- who *really* celebrates the choruses in style.

Not so well suited is Kuijken. Suzuki and Gardiner wouldn't be my first choice in choruses, either. The former is a touch analytical, the latter has warmth and excitement but (sometimes) audibly less rehearsal than Herreweghe and Koopman.