The Bach Cantatas

[Marc]

Thank you for the link. I saw you agreed with him 4 times in a post.
[....]

Yeah, and he also wrote some interesting things about Beethoven interpreters on the piano .... it's a pity he has stopped visiting the forum about 18 months ago.

I.c. exploring Bach cantatas: I can also recommend the recordings of the Limoges Baroque Ensemble with Christophe Coin and the Ricercar Consort with Philippe Pierlot.

http://www.youtube.com/v/hyoamhB9ivA

http://www.youtube.com/v/1sLbNtcMksY

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I.c. exploring Bach cantatas: I can also recommend the recordings of the Limoges Baroque Ensemble with Christophe Coin....

Great discs. Too bad there are only three of them.

[torut]

I.c. exploring Bach cantatas: I can also recommend the recordings of the Limoges Baroque Ensemble with Christophe Coin and the Ricercar Consort with Philippe Pierlot.

Thank you for the links. I enjoyed both, but probably I prefer Pierlot. Of course, it is an impression after hearing just two clips.

[torut]

After enjoying Herreweghe and Koopman (both Secular Cantatas), I purchased Kuijken (Vol. 1, BWV 98, 180, 56, 55) and liked it a lot. The ensemble is sharp and clear, and all the soloists are excellent. Especially, I was impressed with the deep voice and heavy trill of the tenor, Cristoph Genz.  I listened to the same cantata (BWV 55) by Leusink with Nico van der Meel on tenor again, and I felt his singing rather shallow and plain, although not bad. It may match with Holton's singing, in some way.

[Wakefield]

Thank you for the links. I enjoyed both, but probably I prefer Pierlot. Of course, it is an impression after hearing just two clips.

Don't worry: it's not an impression, it's a fact.   

Seriously, Pierlot is just superb in Bach. Unfortunately, he has this mania of re-record one time and again the same cantatas.

[aquablob]

Listened to BWV 90 for the first time today. The penultimate cadence in the chorale really took me by surprise! It's a D-flat major chord in a D-minor movement. Crazy.

He gets there from a C7 chord, having just flirted with the relative major F in the preceding bar, so I guess locally it sounds more like a flat submediant in F major than a flat tonic in D minor, but either way it's shocking (at least to my ears). I'll have to look at the text and think about why he does this.

If you don't know it, you should have a listen:

http://youtu.be/-9U1P3a6u_I?t=12m12s

(the funny chord's at the 13-minute mark; I listened to the gorgeous Suzuki recording, and he lingers on the fermata a bit longer)

[torut]

Don't worry: it's not an impression, it's a fact.   

Seriously, Pierlot is just superb in Bach. Unfortunately, he has this mania of re-record one time and again the same cantatas.

I should be careful since there seem multiple "facts" confronting each other here... 
More and more I feel I want another Church Cantatas set, too. It was not my intention.  Kuijken or Koopman are tempting.

[torut]

Listened to BWV 90 for the first time today. The penultimate cadence in the chorale really took me by surprise! It's a D-flat major chord in a D-minor movement. Crazy.

He gets there from a C7 chord, having just flirted with the relative major F in the preceding bar, so I guess locally it sounds more like a flat submediant in F major than a flat tonic in D minor, but either way it's shocking (at least to my ears). I'll have to look at the text and think about why he does this.

If you don't know it, you should have a listen:

http://youtu.be/-9U1P3a6u_I?t=12m12s

(the funny chord's at the 13-minute mark; I listened to the gorgeous Suzuki recording, and he lingers on the fermata a bit longer)

That is interesting, thank you for the clip. Dürr's Bach Cantata book does not mention it. I found similar discussion at Bach Cantatas Website. It mentioned another example of unusual sequence: a - b - c# - d# in BWV 60. (Dürr wrote that this whole-tone sequence fascinated Alban Berg, who wove this chorale into his Violin Concerto.)

[Wakefield]

Kuijken will give you - at least when finished - a complete liturgical year, roughly a third of the sacred cantatas.

Koopman's traversal is finished since long ago and includes all the sacred cantatas, plus the secular cantatas.

Not to mention the stylistic differences: Kuijken supports the OVPP theory, while Koopman is one of the most conspicuous enemies of that practice, with a lot of harsh papers written on this controversy (where he writes, for instance, about the "American arrogance" of Joshua Rifkin ).

[torut]

Do you know if Kuijken plans or has intention to record the complete Bach Cantatas?

I am an irresponsible listener and enjoy whatever sounds good. I think it is a good thing that musicians have strong opinions, because then they polish up music toward their own musical goals/ideals. We don't need to be caught by each ideology, we just enjoy them. Is this attitude arrogant? 

[Wakefield]

Do you know if Kuijken plans or has intention to record the complete Bach Cantatas?

On the contrary, from the beginning was stated the intention of recording just one liturgical year.

Is this attitude arrogant? 

I don't know: as there is a lot of Americans around here, I'm probably accustomed. 

[torut]

On the contrary, from the beginning was stated the intention of recording just one liturgical year.

Thank you. Anyway it is going to take a long time to complete it. (so far, CD1 in May 2006 ~ CD 18 in Feb 2014)

[milk]

On the contrary, from the beginning was stated the intention of recording just one liturgical year.

There has been some doubt as to whether Kuijken has concluded or not. Putting that aside, does the Kuijken series go in some kind of chronological order? I have some of the booklets but not all of them. Actually, I know nothing about the Christian liturgical year. Each disk has about three cantatas: are they usually representing a different day of worship on the calendar? I was just trying to look up where different ones fall but I got confused. What is the method? And can we figure out how many more editions there might be by counting the recordings? 

[Que]

Check this:   http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bach_cantatas_by_liturgical_function

Q

[Wakefield]

Check this:   http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bach_cantatas_by_liturgical_function

Q

Yes, this is an useful guide.

I stopped collecting this series after vol. 8, so my information is not up-to-date and I don't know its level of completion. 

Unfortunately, this kind of project excludes, by definition, some "great hits" among the sacred cantatas, for instance, the "Actus Tragicus" and the "Trauerode".

[Marc]

Yes, this is an useful guide.

I stopped collecting this series after vol. 8, so my information is not up-to-date and I don't know its level of completion. 

Unfortunately, this kind of project excludes, by definition, some "great hits" among the sacred cantatas, for instance, the "Actus Tragicus" and the "Trauerode".

The Trauer-Ode is seen as a secular cantata, even though both works were both composed for a funeral service, but the text of the latter is purely secular.

The Actus Tragicus is not part of the regular church year and that must be one of the reasons why Kuijken did not record it. The work was composed strictly for one special occasion.

[milk]

Check this:   http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bach_cantatas_by_liturgical_function

Q

Thanks. The link is helpful. If there are 66 occasions in the liturgical year then it would seem the series is very nearly done.   

[Wakefield]

The Actus Tragicus is not part of the regular church year and that must be one of the reasons why Kuijken did not record it. The work was composed strictly for one special occasion.

That's what I wrote. If you choose to record just cantatas part of the liturgical year, "by definition" you exclude, for instance, all the funeral cantatas, even if they are considered "sacred cantatas" (I prefer this term to the, IMO, more restrictive "church cantatas").

The Trauer-Ode is seen as a secular cantata, even though both works were both composed for a funeral service, but the text of the latter is purely secular.

Well, that's at least debatable beyond the lyrics because its natural place is with the other funeral cantatas considered "sacred cantatas" and it has always been recorded this way. Additionally, when reconstructed (f.i., the excellent disk "Tombeau de Sa Mejesté la Reine de Pologne" by the Ricercar Consort), the funeral service clearly has a liturgical context, with the program starting with a short mass at the beginning.

[Marc]

That's what I wrote. If you choose to record just cantatas part of the liturgical year, "by definition" you exclude, for instance, all the funeral cantatas, even if they are considered "sacred cantatas" (I prefer this term to the, IMO, more restrictive "church cantatas").

Yes, you did.
Sloppy reading by me. I somehow missed the "by definition"

Well, that's at least debatable beyond the lyrics because its natural place is with the other funeral cantatas considered "sacred cantatas" and it has always been recorded this way. Additionally, when reconstructed (f.i., the excellent disk "Tombeau de Sa Mejesté la Reine de Pologne" by the Ricercar Consort), the funeral service clearly has a liturgical context, with the program starting with a short mass at the beginning.

Of course it's debatable. Almost everything in Bach is debatable.

But it's still (mostly) seen as a secular cantata, just like the funeral cantata BWV 244a for Prince Leopold of Köthen. A Lutheran church service for the Electress Christiane Eberhardine wasn't allowed, because the House of Saxony was Roman Catholic (Frederik August I had converted himself to the RC Church to become king of Poland). It's noteworthy though that Christiane Eberhardine refused to follow her husband's example and remained Lutheran.

About the reconstruction: of course every musician is free to reconstruct any piece of music or any service, but there is no historical evidence of a Mass sung during the memorial service in the Universitätskirche of Leipzig, for which BWV 198 was composed.

And I'm not entirely sure if Philippe Pierlot is really suggesting that the Mass BWV 234 (or another Mass) was part of this particular event.

Anyway. the only reliable document that survived from this episode (besides, thank heavens, BWV 198 ) is Das thränende Leipzig by Christoph Ernst Sicul (who also wrote the Leipzig Academic yearbooks Annalium Lipsiensium Maxime Academicorum), and there's no mentioning of any Mass or any other strictly liturgic chant.
The church bells were ringing in mourning tone whilst the guests entered the church, after their entrance the text of the cantata was distributed to them, the service began with a prelude played on the organ, then the first part of BWV 198 was executed, then student Hans Carl von Kirchbach (who organized this particular Leipzig memorial service) held the funeral oration and finally part 2 of BWV 198 was played.

[torut]

According to this site, the number of Kuijken's Bach Cantatas discs will be 20. So, only 2 are remaining.

A new one voice per part (OVPP) series of Bach cantata recordings directed by Sigiswald Kuijken is underway on Accent Records. The series will comprise 20 hybrid SACDs, not a complete set of cantatas by any means, but enough for a complete liturgical year.

I mistakenly thought that Kuijken would record all the cantatas for the church year. Because Bach usually composed multiple cantatas for each church day, the total number of church year cantatas is about ~190. If it will be really 20 CDs set, even many church year cantatas will not be recorded? So far, the recorded cantatas are as following.

volume 1 BWV 98, 180, 56, 55
volume 2 BWV 177, 93, 135
volume 3 BWV 82, 178, 102
volume 4 BWV 16, 153, 65, 154
volume 5 BWV 179, 35, 164, 17
volume 6 BWV 18, 23, 1
volume 7 BWV 20, 2, 10
volume 8 BWV 13, 73, 144, 81
volume 9 BWV 61, 36, 62, 132
volume 10 BWV 11, 44, 86, 108
volume 11 BWV 12, 67, 85
volume 12 BWV 138, 27, 47, 96
volume 13 BWV 249, 6
volume 14 BWV 91, 57, 151 & 122
volume 15 BWV 52, 60, 116 & 140
volume 16 BWV 34, 173, 184, 129
volume 17 BWV 54, 134, 168 & 186
volume 18 BWV 70, 9, 182