The Bach Cantatas

[Pat B]

I have been listening to each disc of the Gardiner box on the appropriate day over the past year (well, life caused me to be a bit late on a few, but I mostly succeeded). I just finished a few minutes ago.

What a journey!

I may re-start it this Christmas (disc 1 in this set).

[elotito]

I'll just jump in and ask it: is there any particular set which is regarded as best? I have a couple of Suzuki volumes and I really like them but I haven't delved in to anyone else's recordings.

[king ubu]

I assume there's no easy answer to that ... I went with the Gardiner box since I generally enjoy his recordings. I've made my way through about two thirds of it so far (tried listening to the appropriate disc over the course of a year, throwing in other recordings of the respective cantatas around, but got sidetracked by other things ...)

I've got plenty of Herreweghe, too (all those white book editions repackaging earlier releases, they're all 3CD set, containing comments and notes and all that) and some of the Koopman volumes (3CD sets as well). All are good to my ears.

Not familiar at all with Bach cantatas by Suzuki though ... and not with Leonhardt or Harnoncourt either.

[Jo498]

I have not heard all Bach cantatas but I have heard and own some recordings from almost all existing or ongoing cycles (except Kuijken's)

If you want "all male" singers (i.e. male choirs, male solo altos and (sometimes overtaxed) soprano boy soloists), Harnoncourt/Leonhardt is the only choice. In many other respects they were "pioneers" which can include some scratchy playing, some exaggerations, but also a sense of discovery far from routine.

Gardiner and Suzuki are usually much better (often polished and virtuosic) played and sung. I found the first Suzuki disc I heard terrible (some catalogue/teaser incl. a weak and thin BWV 4) a later one is much better but despite Suzuki stressing his faith in the booklets they can hardly be claimed to be the last word in expression of "deeper meaning". In fact, they are more on the squeaky clean but somewhat shallow side (except that early disc wasn't even squeaky clean).

Gardiner can be more powerful, but he has sometimes a mixed bag of soloists and especially the older Archiv recordings can be fast and perfunctory without much expression. Still, this is probably the one I'd get if I wanted a newish set.

I have only one Koopman volume and do not remember enough about it.

Herreweghe only recorded a few dozen but they are all very beautiful, if not as dramatic as Harnoncourt or others.

Rilling/Hänssler is on modern instruments and seems somewhat old-fashioned today. His set includes some stellar solo work (e.g. Augér)

Although there are some staid performances among them and it's only about 25-30 cantatas, I think among the best modern instrument Bach can be found on the East German 70s/80s recordings. They have often even better soloists than Rilling, boys choirs and (sometimes) comparably lively direction (usually by Rotzsch). In any case they represent the strong "central German" Bach tradition around the Dresden and Leipzig choirs.

I'd recommend that you try a few single discs/volumes of the other sets. Suzuki has very good press in some quarters and objectively probably all but the earliest vols. are very good. But there are also some reviewers who agree in finding them too cool or even "sterile".

[The new erato]

I remember with fondness some Gønnenwein (recently deceased BTW) LPs I used to have.

[Jo498]

Gönnenwein is probably somewhat similar to Rilling. I don't think I have heard any of his cantatas but he made recordings of both passions around 1970 with stellar casts of soloists but often somewhat generic direction as far as I remember them.

In any case, we are quite spoiled with usually 5 or more decent too great options even for the lesser known cantatas (and far more for the two dozen or so famous ones).

[The new erato]

He's from the same German Kapellmeister school as Rilling for sure, but I don't know Rilling's recordings to compare. His "Gott, wie dein Name, so ist auch dein Ruhm, BWV 171" was an earopener to me in the mid 70ies, having previously only listened to a handfull of cantatas from the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt series.

[king ubu]

The Gönnenwein passions (EMI) are nice indeed! Don't think I have heard (or have on my shelves) any of his cantata recordings though.

Richter would be the next name to throw in ... his Bach recordings have been reissued in boxes that go at attractive prices, but so far I've stood away, although I have enjoyed the samples you get in the Archiv Produktion box (and I also have the later St Matthew with Janet Baker).

[San Antone]

The collection of Bach Cantatas for the Liturgical Year by Kuijken is the one I like: small vocal forces and period instruments.  18 vols.

[psu]

If you use one or more of the streaming services, I'll note that at least Spotify and Apple Music have the whole Rilling set available, and probably pieces of the others. This is an easy way to compare before buying if you want.

[North Star]

The collection of Bach Cantatas for the Liturgical Year by Kuijken is the one I like: small vocal forces and period instruments.  18 vols.

You - and everyone else, really - should try the Montreal Baroque recordings with Eric Milnes, David. Another excellent OVPP series with around half a dozen CDs in it so far.

https://www.youtube.com/v/7vGWlk8oiZM


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[San Antone]

You - and everyone else, really - should try the Montreal Baroque recordings with Eric Milnes, David. Another excellent OVPP series with around half a dozen CDs in it so far.

https://www.youtube.com/v/7vGWlk8oiZM


[asin]B000CCU8G2[/asin]

Thanks, I'll listen.

[elotito]

Thank you for all the detailed answer everyone, much appreciated.

[rw1883]

Hello All:

I've been wanting to get the Gardiner set for a while so it might be the right time.  Including shipping, it comes out to US $176.  Is this a good price?

[asin]B00ETHPJ1U[/asin]

Thank you in advance!

[milk]

The collection of Bach Cantatas for the Liturgical Year by Kuijken is the one I like: small vocal forces and period instruments.  18 vols.

Frankly, I can't get used the sound of anything but these. I'm not an aficionado, though. To me it seems in Kuijken, the voice is another instrument - equal to the other instruments. I like that. 

[Pat B]

Hello All:

I've been wanting to get the Gardiner set for a while so it might be the right time.  Including shipping, it comes out to US $176.  Is this a good price?

[asin]B00ETHPJ1U[/asin]

Thank you in advance!

Sorry for the slow response.

Yes, that's a very good price. I think I paid about $225. I've been very happy with it although I haven't compared it to other sets.

[aligreto]

I'll just jump in and ask it: is there any particular set which is regarded as best? I have a couple of Suzuki volumes and I really like them but I haven't delved in to anyone else's recordings.

I have four sets and would categorize them as follows:

Harnoncourt/Leonhardt - there at the beginning of HIP Bach. Well played with children vocalists if you like that particular presentation.

Suzuki - very well played but a little too sterile on the emotional side for my particular liking [not a criticism].

Herreweghe - incomplete but excellent and brings out the spirituality of the music.

Gardiner [SDG] - excellent and brings out the real joy that lurks in this music. The Monteverdi Choir is also excellent.

[jlaurson]

I have four sets and would categorize them as follows:

Harnoncourt/Leonhardt - there at the beginning of HIP Bach. Well played with children vocalists if you like that particular presentation.

Suzuki - very well played but a little too sterile on the emotional side for my particular liking [not a criticism].

Herreweghe - incomplete but excellent and brings out the spirituality of the music.

Gardiner [SDG] - excellent and brings out the real joy that lurks in this music. The Monteverdi Choir is also excellent.

That's a basic categorization which I would sign off on, too... although I might add this flavor:

Harnoncourt/Leonhardt are pioneers and the standards (esp. of hitting the right notes for those darn kids) were considerably more lax then than they are now. Some of it sounds nearly as off as the 1950s Leipzig recordings of Cantatas with Rotzsch or Ramin. Well, not as bad. And not as damn slow. But this is a LONG way away from the perfection of Suzuki.

For many of the earlier Suzuki recordings (to which I return very regularly, the sterile characterization could very well be thought of as a criticism. It's just not as touching as it might be. That, however, I find gone starting with something around volume 30-ish. Especially when and where he has sublime singers like Carolyn Sampson and the like. Suzuki is a very, very strong cycle, indeed.

Herreweghe: Indeed, if this cycle were complete, it should be my favorite. But Herreweghe very pointedly chose to record only those cantatas that really spoke to him and that's perhaps the reason why that which we have is so darn good. My favorite disc among the lot: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/03/weinen-klagenherreweghes-new-bach.html

"Joy of the moment" with Gardiner is both an apt description and a euphemism for "under-rehearsed". This isn't as perfectionist, nor is it as *obviously* compelling as most of Herreweghe or much late Suzuki... and you can tell sometimes that these cantatas were done and recorded 'on the go'. It's still very, very good, and perhaps it also suffers slightly from obscenely high expectations (the presentation of those discs alone, in the individual volume-series, is amazing) that the end-result must disappoint necessarily.

A few additional comments:

Leusink: Better than their reputation (the modular approach to recording and initially being sold in Dutch drugstores harmed them) and not nearly as good as the sworn defenders of the cycle make it out to be. Good to have, if you happen to have one of the Brilliant complete Bach boxes, but nothing worth seeking out.

Rilling: Perhaps the worst complete cycle... or the most dated one. Actually, at its best, it contains Must-Have discs... but in toto, it cannot convince with the old-fashioned approach and the occasional aged singer. In truth, I would still listen to this rather than Harnoncourt (to whom I know no loyalty of 'first exposure', which I would suggest is a major reason of the high regard in which it is still held), because no matter the style, I just don't like off-kilter singing. Same reason I can't actually recommend pre-Biller Thomaner Boys Choir recordings (i.e. Ramin & Rotzsch), even if a lovely old-fashioned musicality can be found in several of their recordings.

Koopman: Perhaps my over-all favorite. Very middle of the road, among HIP cycles... but shockingly* tremendously consistent. (* nothing is actually shocking about Koopman's Bach... just gently uplifting, all the time. ) I'm not sure he's got a single cantata of which his version is my favorite, but the very high level of performance in every cantata and a total absence of duds and good soloists throughout make this my go-to cycle among complete cycles. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/ich-hatte-viel-bekummernis-bach.html

Kuijken: A 'One-Liturgical-Year-Cycle' on Accent. Rocking, shocking, socking, One-Voice-Per-Part radicalism... and friggin' awesome in the process. Is to Bach's cantatas what Simon Rattle's Brahms cycle is to Brahms symphonies... drawn with a razor blade. Very exciting stuff but very incomplete. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/best-recordings-of-2010-7.html

[SonicMan46]

That's a basic categorization which I would sign off on, too... although I might add this flavor:

Harnoncourt/Leonhardt are pioneers and the standards (esp. of hitting the right notes for those darn kids)......

For many of the earlier Suzuki recordings (to which I return very regularly.... Suzuki is a very, very strong cycle, indeed.....

Herreweghe: Indeed, if this cycle were complete, it should be my favorite........

"Joy of the moment" with Gardiner is both an apt description and a euphemism for "under-rehearsed".....

A few additional comments:

Leusink: Better than their reputation...

Rilling: Perhaps the worst complete cycle...

Koopman: Perhaps my over-all favorite......

Kuijken: A 'One-Liturgical-Year-Cycle' on Accent. Rocking, shocking, socking, One-Voice-Per-Part radicalism... and friggin' awesome in the process......

Hi Jens - thanks for your excellent comments on the Bach Cantatas - hard for me to imagine how one has the time to listen to multiple versions of these numerous works - YIKES! 

I have Suzuki (5 Anniversary releases, i.e. 55 discs) & the Gardiner 'mixed box' w/ 12 of 22 discs being the 'Cantatas' - then only a few discs of Herreweghe & Rilling - the latter a 2-CD set of the 'Secular Cantatas' which I enjoy - do you have a favorite interpretation of these secular cantatas?

Finally, the Koopman 67-disc box is going for $300 on Amazon USA at the moment, so not a consideration for me - I'm assuming that he did the 'secular' works - as asked above, do you like him in these performances?  Thanks - Dave


 

[rw1883]

Hi Jens - thanks for your excellent comments on the Bach Cantatas - hard for me to imagine how one has the time to listen to multiple versions of these numerous works - YIKES! 

I have Suzuki (5 Anniversary releases, i.e. 55 discs) & the Gardiner 'mixed box' w/ 12 of 22 discs being the 'Cantatas' - then only a few discs of Herreweghe & Rilling - the latter a 2-CD set of the 'Secular Cantatas' which I enjoy - do you have a favorite interpretation of these secular cantatas?

Finally, the Koopman 67-disc box is going for $300 on Amazon USA at the moment, so not a consideration for me - I'm assuming that he did the 'secular' works - as asked above, do you like him in these performances?  Thanks - Dave


 

Not a huge difference, but the Koopman box is going for $245 at JPC: https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Das-Kantatenwerk-Ton-Koopman/hnum/5910218