Digital Magazines (Books) - Do We Want This?

[Lethevich]

It has a history.

Especially when one of the previous owners have decided to write little notes in the margin I used to be annoyed when I got secondhand books like that, but now I find them cute.

[orbital]

Orbital

I am not against the digital books technology as such. If some people, like you, feel happy and at ease with it, fine, let them have their way.

I just don't want it. I'm with Benji, Corey, Bogey, Dave and others all the way: going to a bookshop and spending a whole hour there even if eventually I don't buy anything; my library, where each book is an extension of my own self and added something valuable to my mind, feelings and life, and where I know exactly where to find this or that book that I've already read two or three times; these are experiences that are part and parcel of my personality and giving them away for the sake of a "progress" that I don't believe in or of a technological utopia that I abhor (the utopia, that is, not the technology itself) would be like giving away part of my "life, liberty and property".

It is not for the sake of progress that I am using an electronic device. I am not using it because it is trendy, nor because it is the way books should be read. It is simply because electronic readers are more convenient and they deliver the content more efficiently, and as I said content is all that I am looking to receive from a book -nothing else.

I don't think anyone will force you or others here to give up paper books. But just as the CD shops are being closed left and right, bookstores will eventually go the same way. It is very easy to kill the cultural associations with books. It only takes one generation. Remember letters written in ink?

As for ecological concerns, the recycled paper has been around for many years. And anyway, the primary concern should be the myriad newspapers that are being printed daily around the world and that are committed only to vulgarity, stupidity, and dumbing down people, not a few thousand pieces of "Crime and Punishment" being printed once in a decade, if at all.

We all hear these things, but allow me to paste some little recent information:
Over the past three years the book industry needed three to four million tons of paper which translates to at least 60 million trees worldwide. The paper industry ranks number four in carbon dioxide emissions among manufacturing industries.
According to the same article Random House uses only 3% recycled paper. They have plans to increase it by tenfold which will still be below the 37% average.

And you know for every C&P published, there are thousands of other titles printed worldwide. Surely you cannot suggest that only literally inferior works should go electronic 

So, use happily your Sony Reader --- but let me happily read my books as well.

What makes sense --- a lot of sense --- is letting each people decide what they want and what they don't want. The mere fact that something can be done --- e.g., the digitalization of all books and the downright prohibition of all traditional books, using ecological or economical rationales --- doesn't mean it has to be done.

Freedom of choice (actually freedom in general) is the only singular value that I can comfortably die for. So of course everyone should do as they please when it comes to books, music... all things in life. It is just that romantic relationships to books and other material goods is not something I have ever possessed. I never took good care of my books when I had them. For me, they were only for reading, a vehicle so to speak. If another vehicle comes up that is better in almost every way in delivering what it is supposed to, I will naturally switch to that. That is not to say everyone else should of course. However I believe the future does not hold much space for books or libraries 

I like books. I like CDs and records.

The idea of carrying around my whole library or CD collection in some small hand-held device strikes me as faintly repulsive. It took me years to acquire all those units, and I want to see them and feel them. They are special.

I can see some use for portable digital media. Namely, they would be useful for things that I didn't want to keep around permanently, like topical books and pop songs. But I would never want to have War and Peace or the Beethoven quartets in such an ephemeral form.

IF you say they are special because of the way they are packaged rather than what they contain, I can't agree with you
You are speaking as if Beethoven wrote those quartets to be put on Compact Discs. He wrote them to be heard -and only live at that. Are you saying that a round shiny plastic disc is more in the spirit of Beethoven than a digital file?

Very well said.

I feel that physical books, especially older books, have a "presence" that mere words lack. There is just something pleasing about looking at, picking up and cracking open my copy of a la recherche de temps perdu (Remembrance of Things Past in my edition) from the 1930s. It has a history.

I am an android I guess 

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

You are speaking as if Beethoven wrote those quartets to be put on Compact Discs. He wrote them to be heard -and only live at that. Are you saying that a round shiny plastic disc is more in the spirit of Beethoven than a digital file?

No, I am saying that, if I can't hear them live, I like those quartets to be presented in the form of a physical object (doesn't have to be a CD, could be a vinyl disc), with certain peculiarities that are characteristic of such objects (liner notes written on paper, cover art, photos).

[Florestan]

It is very easy to kill the cultural associations with books. It only takes one generation.

Are you implying that the coming of a Fahrenheit 451-style society is unavoidable?

Remember letters written in ink?

These are the only ones I ever wrote. 

BTW, what do you make of handwriting in the future? Would it disappear, too?

of course everyone should do as they please when it comes to books, music... all things in life.

We are in perfect agreement then.  0:)

It is just that romantic relationships to books and other material goods is not something I have ever possessed.

I think that's the fundamental difference between you and us and you put it very well. It is indeed a romance.

I believe the future does not hold much space for books or libraries 

This boils down to saying that future doesn't hold much space for people like me or others here. 

I am an android I guess 

Do you ever dream of electric sheep? 

[orbital]

No, I am saying that, if I can't hear them live, I like those quartets to be presented in the form of a physical object (doesn't have to be a CD, could be a vinyl disc), with certain peculiarities that are characteristic of such objects (liner notes written on paper, cover art, photos).

OK I see. You mean an object representing the music it contains. Something to identify it with perhaps. But I'd still say a data file which represents music in its simplest, intangible form is more in its spirit.

Are you implying that the coming of a Fahrenheit 451-style society is unavoidable?

I have not read the book  But I understand what you mean. What is unavoidable is the advance of technology and the place it occupies in our lives. Also that change and impermanence are the only things permenant. They are the only two things that are worth clinging to IMO. This must have read like a cyber-punk-zen philosophy 

These are the only ones I ever wrote. 

BTW, what do you make of handwriting in the future? Would it disappear, too?

You have my kudos if you are still writing letters and sending them via post Florestan  My written communications have been through computers exclusively whether they be emails or PMs (or posts) for the last 7-8 years 
Handwriting will probably be obsolete at one point. Don't you think so as well?

I think that's the fundamental difference between you and us and you put it very well. It is indeed a romance.

Hey, I am a Chopin guy!   

This boils down to saying that future doesn't hold much space for people like me or others here. 

No. If I am hearing you correctly, if ten years ago a friend of yours had told you that, in ten years you will do a good deal of your classical music discussions in a virtual environment with people most of whom you will never meet in person, you'd probably say the same thing to him/her.
I think the single most amazing peculiarity of the human kind is their propensity to adjust.

Do you ever dream of electric sheep? 

I've been seeing weird dreams lately though  They invariably involve a sea voyage and people I used to know from long ago 

[Szykneij]

I am in the same camp with those who crave the tactile, aromatic, and aesthetic experience books provide. I grieve for the loss of the numerous used bookstores that no longer exist near my home. But ...

It is very easy to kill the cultural associations with books. It only takes one generation. Remember letters written in ink?

... is absolutely correct. My teenage son, who is very into his own music, doesn't own a CD anymore. All of his music is downloaded, and he would not miss CDs or books in print if they were gone.

Are you implying that the coming of a Fahrenheit 451-style society is unavoidable?

Not the same thing. The thoughts and ideas found in books will not disappear. They will just be in a different format.

BTW, what do you make of handwriting in the future? Would it disappear, too?

I've noticed that the quality of my handwriting, which was never great but was at least legible, has gone way downhill. Use it or lose it applies!

[SonicMan46]

I am in the same camp with those who crave the tactile, aromatic, and aesthetic experience books provide. I grieve for the loss of the numerous used bookstores that no longer exist near my home................

I love this aspect of books, esp. those that are well made (or reproduced) using the older techniques - about 30 yrs ago, I subscribed to a medical book series that reproduced some of the 'classics' (many going back centuires, such as Harvey's treatise on the heart & circulation) - stopped after acquiring about 16 (although more were produced) - the shelf of these books is in a cadenza in our living room (shown below) - just adore handling (and smelling) these tomes - covers are tooled leather painted in gold & pages are acid-free thick paper (have not yellowed a bit in 3 decades!) w/ gold edges; two of my favorites are William Osler's The Principles & Practice of Medicine & Rudolph Virchow's Cellular Pathology, both originally published in the 19th century - but a lost art, I'm afraid - 

[drogulus]

     OK, I'm convinced. If I can comfortably read on one of these then I'm all for it. That's a big if, but if I can comfortably read several hundred pages at home, at work and on the bus and subway, then I'm all for it and I'll exchange books for downloads just like I've done with music and started to do with video. Books are sometimes physically attractive, but that isn't very important.

[orbital]

     OK, I'm convinced. If I can comfortably read on one of these then I'm all for it. That's a big if, but if I can comfortably read several hundred pages at home, at work and on the bus and subway, then I'm all for it and I'll exchange books for downloads just like I've done with music and started to do with video. Books are sometimes physically attractive, but that isn't very important.

I knew i could count on you drogulus 

Believe me you can read them just as easily as books. It's quite an amazing technology. One pitfall that no one has brought forward  is the need to recharge (therefore not being a deserted island option). But one full charge is good for a few thousand pages. It is my understanding that these devices do not use any power when a page is displayed. They only need power to refresh (i.e turn) the page.

[drogulus]

     Where do I sign up? It's not a first-born child kind of thing, is it?

[Szykneij]

This display is not as attractive as Dave's, but most of the books on these shelves are field guides and reference manuals. How do the electronic devices perform in dealing with illustrations, diagrams, and photos?

[Kullervo]

I am an android I guess 

I-readers are like any other machine: they're either a benefit or a hazard. If they're a benefit it's not my problem.

[Diletante]

I've been using Sony Reader for the last year, and haven't looked back. [...]

I'm intrigued. How do these things work? Are they something like iPods, do you have a program to sincronize it with your computer? What formats can the reader ...um... read?

[orbital]

This display is not as attractive as Dave's, but most of the books on these shelves are field guides and reference manuals. How do the electronic devices perform in dealing with illustrations, diagrams, and photos?

The displays are black and white, so color photos are not an option. I don't know if you can find all those guides and manuals in electronic format. But the Sony Reader can display pdf files with photos, diagrams just as you see them on your computer (in b&w alas). In pdf and Sony document formats the index pages are generally clickable, so you can skip to a topic/chapter directly from the index page.

I'm intrigued. How do these things work? Are they something like iPods, do you have a program to sincronize it with your computer? What formats can the reader ...um... read?

I don't know about Kindle, but Sony reads txt, doc, rtf, pdf and sony ebook formats. There are three text sizes that you can switch in between. The Sony format has a comfortable text size that you can read in the 'small text' option.  For doc files, I generally format the document to 16pt fonts which gives a standard paper book size on screen when viewed in small text.
Kindle, AFAIK, reads some non-proprietary formats as well but Amazon charges you for each pdf file you want to put in there for some reason.

There is a software that the device comes with. It works like i-tunes. You add the documents to your library and then either sync your library with the Reader or you can choose which ones to copy to device. But when you connect it to your computer, Reader appears like a storage device and you can drag and drop files directly on there as well. I generally prefer to drag and drop because if you copy a document to Reader via sync, you can only delete it by removing the file from your library and resynching.

It plays mp3 files too, so you can listen to music while reading. However for that you might want to get a SD card for storage as Reader's internal memory, if I'm not mistaken, is 256MB.

[Florestan]

I have not read the book  But I understand what you mean. What is unavoidable is the advance of technology and the place it occupies in our lives. Also that change and impermanence are the only things permenant. They are the only two things that are worth clinging to IMO. This must have read like a cyber-punk-zen philosophy 

It's obvious that the advance of technology doesn't take into account anything but itself; to me it looks like a force unleashed by an apprentice sorcerer whose master is nowhere to be found. But I summarized my own philosophy in respect with this above: if something can be done, this doesn't mean it must be done. I am convinced that, absent a major paradigm shift, in one hundred years time there will be nothing left on Earth from what we know today as "human feelings and emotions". My only consolation is that I will not witness that.

You have my kudos if you are still writing letters and sending them via post Florestan  My written communications have been through computers exclusively whether they be emails or PMs (or posts) for the last 7-8 years 

Let me clarify: I stoped writing letters and sending them via post a long time ago, too. But what replaced them are not letters; they are electronic mails, SMS or PMs. If you could compare the content and form of my letters of yore with the content and form with my e-mails, SMS or PMs the difference would be striking, I assure you.

Handwriting will probably be obsolete at one point. Don't you think so as well?

Oh yes, I fear so as well. 

No. If I am hearing you correctly, if ten years ago a friend of yours had told you that, in ten years you will do a good deal of your classical music discussions in a virtual environment with people most of whom you will never meet in person, you'd probably say the same thing to him/her.

No. It's a different thing altogether. I am here by my own choice and I can drop the whole thing anytime if I feel like it, like I did in the past and stayed away from GMG for months. Besides, I enjoy it. If in my own life span libraries and books will disappear, it won't left me any choice and I certainly won't enjoy it. The former is a case of freedom, the latter a case of tyranny (progressive and technological, to be sure, but tyrannny nevertheless --- I dare say, worse than any other in the past, because there will be no escape whatsoever from it: the extension of the old tyrannies was limited in space and time; the one in the making will know of no such limitations)

Hey, I am a Chopin guy!   

I've been seeing weird dreams lately though  They invariably involve a sea voyage and people I used to know from long ago 

See? Your human self tries to expel the android in you. 

[Florestan]

Not the same thing. The thoughts and ideas found in books will not disappear. They will just be in a different format.

That's an apt description of the Fahrenheit 451 society. 

I've noticed that the quality of my handwriting, which was never great but was at least legible, has gone way downhill. Use it or lose it applies!

Sure.

[orbital]

It's obvious that the advance of technology doesn't take into account anything but itself; to me it looks like a force unleashed by an apprentice sorcerer whose master is nowhere to be found. But I summarized my own philosophy in respect with this above: if something can be done, this doesn't mean it must be done. I am convinced that, absent a major paradigm shift, in one hundred years time there will be nothing left on Earth from what we know today as "human feelings and emotions". My only consolation is that I will not witness that.

We are all children of our own circumstances. When you look at the future through a time telescope the future you describe is indeed frightening, because you are looking at it from today's circumstance. In reality human feelings and emotions will only disappear when (and if) they become completely obsolete. And when (and again if) such a time comes, it will not be for the worse. It may sound worse when you think about it now, but if the time comes it will be for the better when you live through that period or it simply won't happen at all.

Let me clarify: I stoped writing letters and sending them via post a long time ago, too. But what replaced them are not letters; they are electronic mails, SMS or PMs. If you could compare the content and form of my letters of yore with the content and form with my e-mails, SMS or PMs the difference would be striking, I assure you.

OK, so your need to express that content in that form has either died down or it has diminished to such low levels that you don't bother to write and send them anymore. How is that inherently bad except that the nostalgia may give you a feeling of knot in the gut?

No. It's a different thing altogether. I am here by my own choice and I can drop the whole thing anytime if I feel like it, like I did in the past and stayed away from GMG for months. Besides, I enjoy it. If in my own life span libraries and books will disappear, it won't left me any choice and I certainly won't enjoy it. The former is a case of freedom, the latter a case of tyranny (progressive and technological, to be sure, but tyrannny nevertheless --- I dare say, worse than any other in the past, because there will be no escape whatsoever from it: the extension of the old tyrannies was limited in space and time; the one in the making will know of no such limitations)

But my question is, how would you react ten years ago? Would you say "Sure, I'll try that when the time comes. It sounds like fun." or  "I certainly won't enjoy it" ?

There is nothing about technology that gives me a feeling of tyranny. It is not a separate organism from everything else in the world. Music is changing, so is literature, so is painting, so are buildings, what we wear, what we drive, how we travel, how we interact... how we read is only a very small part of this gradual shift. What does not make sense is trying to keep one aspect apart from everything else.

See? Your human self tries to expel the android in you. 

- My brain calculates that as a result of having re-read Salinger's Teddy very recently, my brainwaves recall people associated with the first time I had read the story and mingle them together in this fashion 
- My brain is in complete awe of Chopin and ceases to compute when the first chord of the Barcarolle echoes through the eardrum 

[Diletante]

I don't know about Kindle, but Sony reads txt, doc, rtf, pdf and sony ebook formats. [...]

Sounds very interesting! I like reading books in foreign languages (English, German), which are impossible to find in local bookstores. Ordering online is a hassle for me, and I have to wait about two months for a single book to arrive from Amazon. Not to mention that the shipment is sometimes MORE EXPENSIVE than the book itself! This way sounds much more convenient.

However, the steep price of the device kind of puts me off. 300$, without taxes and shipment? Hm...

[orbital]

Sounds very interesting! I like reading books in foreign languages (English, German), which are impossible to find in local bookstores. Ordering online is a hassle for me, and I have to wait about two months for a single book to arrive from Amazon. Not to mention that the shipment is sometimes MORE EXPENSIVE than the book itself! This way sounds much more convenient.

However, the steep price of the device kind of puts me off. 300$, without taxes and shipment? Hm...

Sony Reader comes with 100 e-books of your choice. The free selection is mostly limited to classics, but some of them (or their English translations) are still under copyright so they are not giving away something that can already be legally had for free. It is an initial investment that pays off pretty quickly if you are an avid reader IMO.

[greg]

This display is not as attractive as Dave's, but most of the books on these shelves are field guides and reference manuals. How do the electronic devices perform in dealing with illustrations, diagrams, and photos?

Just seeing this picture is a good enough explanation for why I'd want to be able to digitalize all of my books and music.