Digital Magazines (Books) - Do We Want This?

[Florestan]

Music is changing, so is literature, so is painting, so are buildings, what we wear, what we drive, how we travel, how we interact... 

Obviously. But do you automatically equate "change" with "improvement"? Have you never felt or thought that there are changes for worse, rather than for better? Do you accept unconditionally each and every change that occurs?

[Kuhlau]

I love the idea of e-books. So does my wife. She gets a thrashy novel from the library, and then it goes back - so no clutter around our house. But when she BUYS such books (which, let's face it, she's only going to read once), we've got to find yet more storage space in a house that already has too little. Bring on the digital, say I.

(Mind you, I prefer audio books ... but that's because I read rather slowly.)

FK

[orbital]

Obviously. But do you automatically equate "change" with "improvement"? Have you never felt or thought that there are changes for worse, rather than for better? Do you accept unconditionally each and every change that occurs?

I do equate them as long as change comes gradually and naturally. If some printing authority rose up today and said "no more paper books! from today forward all books are electronic, take it or leave it!" that would not be an improvement obviously.
With e-books if the benefits are not there it will never get hold, so I see no reason to worry.

With technology, I have yet to see a change for the worse. Can you give an example?

I know I can't stand in the way of progress, and I am always open to new ideas and developments as long as they are not limiting liberties 

[Florestan]

With technology, I have yet to see a change for the worse. Can you give an example?

TV sets. The most effective tool in the total imbecilization of the masses.

RFID chips. The idea that our every movement and purchase can be tracked and recorded is appalling.

I know I can't stand in the way of progress, and I am always open to new ideas and developments as long as they are not limiting liberties 

That's precisely my main concern. The contemporary advancement of technology results in means of surveillance, control and manipulation that the worst tyrants of the past could only dream of, and is a clear and present threat to our liberties.

[jwinter]

Gotta say I love e-books as well.  I've had eReader installed on my Palm for a couple of years now, and love it.  Recently I've gotten several strong hints that I'm getting a Kindle2 for my birthday in June, and I'm highly amused at the prospect.  I'm liking the idea of the Kindle because of the huge number of books available at Amazon, and the way you can wirelessly get newspapers and magazines (and more books) anywhere there's a cellphone signal.

I don't see it as a replacement for paper books, though, at least not for me.  I see it more as a supplement, a paperless way to get a daily newspaper and books that are all text, fiction, some history books, etc.  I'd always want paper for something with lots of illustrations, maps, or footnotes, but that's not the majority of my reading.  If I really like the thing, I could even see me reducing my paper books to a more manageable amount (ie an amount that actually fits on my bookshelves), but that's down the road.

Check out manybooks.net if you haven't already -- they offer lots of free public domain ebooks, preformatted in the option of your choice (txt, Sony, Kindle, ereader, etc.)  Very nifty site!

[orbital]

Check out manybooks.net if you haven't already -- they offer lots of free public domain ebooks, preformatted in the option of your choice (txt, Sony, Kindle, ereader, etc.)  Very nifty site!

Yes, it's a great site. I've used them many times. When the time comes, I can let you in a little covert site that is the best kept secret among ebook readers 

[orbital]

TV sets. The most effective tool in the total imbecilization of the masses.

Soccer is another one (so I am told  ).
what you mean here is not the TV set, but TV programs. I doubt the TV was invented as a manipulation tool. But as it became more and more mainstream, the programs had to cater to the lowest common denominator. Which is a shame, but not a crime.

RFID chips. The idea that our every movement and purchase can be tracked and recorded is appalling.

I had to look that up. Looks like it's got a lot of uses one of which is to protect the wildlife. When it becomes mandatory to wear them, I will join in the protests with you, shoulder to shoulder 

That's precisely my main concern. The contemporary advancement of technology results in means of surveillance, control and manipulation that the worst tyrants of the past could only dream of, and is a clear and present threat to our liberties.

We have both been raised in oppressive regimes (you more so than I, probably). I have lived under military rule and believe me I know the value of civil liberties. I don't believe technology will lead us to the future you have in mind. It is silly to try to predict the deep future so I won't try that, but like all the great revolutions, the information revolution will take some more time to sink in. Access to information for everyone is a giant step in freedom and it is something else that cannot be stopped 
Think about it: nowadays the oppressive regimes have to withhold technology from their people

[Dr. Dread]

The monkeys can't handle the technology. She's gonna blow!!! 

[Florestan]

Soccer is another one (so I am told  ).
what you mean here is not the TV set, but TV programs. I doubt the TV was invented as a manipulation tool. But as it became more and more mainstream, the programs had to cater to the lowest common denominator. Which is a shame, but not a crime.

The television was surely not invented having manipulation in mind. But it eventually was "highjacked" and became the single most powerful tool for that. So here is an example of a technology that in its inceptions was greeted as a progress (even for educational purposes) but which ended up being something totally different. You asked for such an example, not for a crime.

BTW, soccer and TV are connected. In "those happy days" when TV sets were not yet invented, soccer retained all of its sport features, and so did the fans. When TV came around, the whole thing began to change (gradually and naturally, just as you require) until these times when soccer is a bussiness and the fans are exactly what television has made of them.

When it becomes mandatory to wear them, I will join in the protests with you, shoulder to shoulder 

In Romania they are already mandatory for passports and in two years time they will be so for ID cards and driving licenses as well. Just let me know when you plan to visit Bucharest, so I can greet you at the airport. 

Access to information for everyone is a giant step in freedom and it is something else that cannot be stopped 
Think about it: nowadays the oppressive regimes have to withhold technology from their people

There are two ways of keeping people away from information (I mean, true and relevant information):

1. withhold it altogether from the people and replace it with propaganda
2. drown it in a sea of distorted, irrelevant or trivial information.

I'm sure you can very easy find yourself examples to illustrate both cases. 

[orbital]

The television was surely not invented having manipulation in mind. But it eventually was "highjacked" and became the single most powerful tool for that. So here is an example of a technology that in its inceptions was greeted as a progress (even for educational purposes) but which ended up being something totally different. You asked for such an example, not for a crime.

Well, TV is a technological marvel. It is doing what it is supposed to do marvellously.  How is it the failure of technology that people demand sub par programming from the networks? Can we blame, say, the automobile technology for traffic jams and accidents?

BTW, soccer and TV are connected. In "those happy days" when TV sets were not yet invented, soccer retained all of its sport features, and so did the fans. When TV came around, the whole thing began to change (gradually and naturally, just as you require) until these times when soccer is a bussiness and the fans are exactly what television has made of them.

Poor television All it did was to make the sport reach a much wider audience. You should be blaming club bosses

In Romania they are already mandatory for passports and in two years time they will be so for ID cards and driving licenses as well. Just let me know when you plan to visit Bucharest, so I can greet you at the airport. 

So what are these RFIDs on passports for exactly? Do they scan them at the airports for quick identification, or is it some type of tracking device? I am about to make a plane reservation pending  your answer 

There are two ways of keeping people away from information (I mean, true and relevant information):
1. withhold it altogether from the people and replace it with propaganda
2. drown it in a sea of distorted, irrelevant or trivial information.

I'm sure you can very easy find yourself examples to illustrate both cases. 

The more immediate danger is the witholding of any information -relevant or not. That's where I'd focus first and foremost.

[Florestan]

How is it the failure of technology that people demand sub par programming from the networks?

Do you really believe that people demanded all the filth and crap that's airing on TV? The TV channels have been brainwashing and dumbing them down for decades, and now have the guts to present it all as a matter of demand and offer...

So what are these RFIDs on passports for exactly? Do they scan them at the airports for quick identification, or is it some type of tracking device? I am about to make a plane reservation pending  your answer 

They contain the fingerprints and a digital picture of a person and theoretically they are scanned only at airports and border pass. But --- and this is a publicly proven fact --- anyone with a laptop and an adequate software can clone it, provided he comes within the RFID operating range, which is a few meters. Your identity, which these passports are supposed to protect, is in fact stolen and you can find yourself on the "most wanted terrorists" list, without even knowing it.

I'll let you know when the next protestation march is scheduled.

The more immediate danger is the witholding of any information -relevant or not. That's where I'd focus first and foremost.

Agreed.

[orbital]

Do you really believe that people demanded all the filth and crap that's airing on TV? The TV channels have been brainwashing and dumbing them down for decades, and now have the guts to present it all as a matter of demand and offer...

If people are inclined to go that way...  That's human nature I guess, at least on the mass scale.
But we have a testing ground now. People (provided governments grant access) have the opportunity to hear from every side of every argument -thanks to the internet. They don't need to be content with what is fed to them.

They contain the fingerprints and a digital picture of a person and theoretically they are scanned only at airports and border pass. But --- and this is a publicly proven fact --- anyone with a laptop and an adequate software can clone it, provided he comes within the RFID operating range, which is a few meters. Your identity, which these passports are supposed to protect, is in fact stolen and you can find yourself on the "most wanted terrorists" list, without even knowing it.

I'll let you know when the next protestation march is scheduled.

They can even clone your credit cards without you even losing them. It happened to me, and I had no idea it could be done  Someone somehow copied the information on the magnetic strip and apparently issued a card for him/herself 

One more question, is that a Romania only law or does it have something to do with EU congruity affair?

[Florestan]

People (provided governments grant access) have the opportunity to hear from every side of every argument -thanks to the internet. They don't need to be content with what is fed to them.

Agreed.

They can even clone your credit cards without you even losing them. It happened to me, and I had no idea it could be done  Someone somehow copied the information on the magnetic strip and apparently issued a card for him/herself 

It happened to my wife, too. They attached a device to the card-inserting slot of the ATM and read the magnetic strips of all cards that have been used that day.

One more question, is that a Romania only law or does it have something to do with EU congruity affair?

It's not limited to Romania or even EU. See here, especially the "Opposition" chapter.

[jwinter]

They can even clone your credit cards without you even losing them. It happened to me, and I had no idea it could be done  Someone somehow copied the information on the magnetic strip and apparently issued a card for him/herself 

Yeah, it happened to me too.  Got my statement, and found out about a cool trip to India I'd apparently taken. 

[orbital]

How about this? Do we want it?

http://www.ted.com/talks/pattie_maes_demos_the_sixth_sense.html

[greg]

How about this? Do we want it?

http://www.ted.com/talks/pattie_maes_demos_the_sixth_sense.html

I saw that. Yes, I want it.

[Florestan]

How about this? Do we want it?

http://www.ted.com/talks/pattie_maes_demos_the_sixth_sense.html

My speakers are out of work. What is it?

[orbital]

My speakers are out of work. What is it?

It is basically a device that turns any surface into a touch screen via a projector. Sort of (but only sort of) like that gadget in Minority Report 

[Florestan]

It is basically a device that turns any surface into a touch screen via a projector.

I see. Since I don't need it, I don't want it. 

[orbital]

I see. Since I don't need it, I don't want it. 

Fine! You're not getting one 

But your reasoning is very tempting for a whole seperate discussion