Weird, and sort of sad...

[karlhenning]

50 songs and Beethoven

[jhar26]

I have no read all the thread but I will chime in.

To the question of are classical music fans pretentious the answer is yes, absolutely yes.

People are turned away from classical music people because we are snobs. We will sit and say that the music they like is crap and say that ours is better. In no other music scene is it worse than in classical music.

I  absolutely agree with that. You have them among fans of any genre, but the snob quota is definitely higher among classical music fans. Many think that classical music fans are pompous, mostly rich and conservative people with a superiority complex.

[karlhenning]

. . . but the snob quota is definitely higher among classical music fans.

Ever read Rolling Stone?

How about someone who thinks that The Who is music, but Barry Manilow is not?

Survey said:

[Dr. Dread]

We need a snob hierarchy!

[jhar26]

Ever read Rolling Stone?

How about someone who thinks that The Who is music, but Barry Manilow is not?

Yes, I've read Rolling Stone.   But I've been a member of a number of music forums over the years, both classical and 'popular.' On some of the classical forums I was almost afraid to post because people would just bite your nose off or try to make you feel like an idiot over nothing. I never had that - at least not to the same degree - on a popular music forum.

[Dr. Dread]

The jerks on forums can pollute your personal taste with their stupid ideas. IGNORE THEM!!!  Go with your gut, heart and head. Stand on your own two feet, soldier.

[jhar26]

The jerks on forums can pollute your personal taste with their stupid ideas. IGNORE THEM!!!  Go with your gut, heart and head. Stand on your own two feet, soldier.

O, they don't have any influence whatsoever on my own opinions. But for those who are not yet familiar with classical music such a thing may be a real turn off.

[karlhenning]

Ignore the jerks is nigh unto A Golden Rule.

[DavidRoss]

Yes, I've read Rolling Stone.   But I've been a member of a number of music forums over the years, both classical and 'popular.' On some of the classical forums I was almost afraid to post because people would just bite your nose off or try to make you feel like an idiot over nothing. I never had that - at least not to the same degree - on a popular music forum.

Certainly true of RMCR--but GMG suffers only a few pompous jerks who pop in occasionally to try bolstering their own warped egos at others' expense.  My limited exploration of popular music forums, however, suggests that--like GMG--their populations also include a few benighted participants who mistake their own painful mediocrity and superficiality for genius and profundity, condemning them to remain tragically incapable of learning anything.

[Frumaster]

We need a snob hierarchy!

Many think that classical music fans are pompous, mostly rich and conservative people with a superiority complex.

I scored a 2 out of 4.  Step right up!

[jwinter]

Alas, I'm merely a one.  I'm totally superior, but I'm not at all pompous about it. 

[DavidRoss]

Alas, I'm merely a one.  I'm totally superior, but I'm not at all pompous about it. 

True, true...too bad you're not rich, too!

[Cato]

Certainly true of RMCR--but GMG suffers only a few pompous jerks who pop in occasionally to try bolstering their own warped egos at others' expense.  My limited exploration of popular music forums, however, suggests that--like GMG--their populations also include a few benighted participants who mistake their own painful mediocrity and superficiality for genius and profundity, condemning them to remain tragically incapable of learning anything.

Jack Black has played two similar characters, rock music snobs, in High Fidelity and School of Rock, but I have known such people in reality, especially in earlier years, when classical music was vilified as completely obsolete by the radicals of the 60's and 70's, and even as the music of the oppressive, hate-mongering running dogs of fascist capitalist imperialism. 

[DavidRoss]

Jack Black has played two similar characters, rock music snobs, in High Fidelity and School of Rock, but I have known such people in reality, especially in earlier years, when classical music was vilified as completely obsolete by the radicals of the 60's and 70's, and even as the music of the oppressive, hate-mongering running dogs of fascist capitalist imperialism. 

Hmmm...back then I felt somewhat like that about, say, Brahms, but certainly not Stockhausen, Bach, or Beethoven (especially not after discovering the late quartets!).  How ironic that once-revolutionary rock music has long been co-opted by The Man and for decades has been the foremost means by which the running dogs brainwash young people into becoming mindless, obedient consumers!

[jlaurson]

Many think that classical music fans are pompous, mostly rich and conservative people with a superiority complex.

As a stereotype, it's probably not so far off the mark... although I find that the enthusiastic music lovers I know are almost overwhelmingly left of center (with one, albeit very notable, exception). Not to suggest that political leanings have any influence on our ability to discern good music. Just to fight stereotypes with stereotypes. 

"Pompous"... well--certainly clutzy communicators. But no more pompous, surely, than a-social... a stereotype you have forgotten about. Undoubtedly the most ill-adjusted and weirdest people you would ever meet where part of the classical clientele when I worked at Tower Records. Even the kids from Rock & Rap were in awe what kind of weirdos we had to handle. (This might be ever so slightly a pronounced American phenomenon, though, since classical music enthusiasm was never as widespread through all classes of society and is not in the same way linked with ideas (true or imagined) of "sophistication".) Then again, the rest of classical clientele was made up of people you'd all want to invite for Dinner to your house: Well conversant, clean, smart, non-ideological, low on the zealotism.

Like any good micro-universe, it contains all types... just with pronounced flavors.

Hmmm...back then I felt somewhat like that about, say, Brahms, but certainly not Stockhausen [...].  How ironic that once-revolutionary rock music has long been co-opted by The Man...

And how more ironic, yet, that precisely the anti-establishment modernist classical movement a la Stockhausen, Darmstadt, et al. was largely CIA funded and supported. Talking about "The Man"...  (also one of the ultimate reasons for the failure of modern classical music, which is a sad truth even as originals like Stockhausen influenced other musics greatly.

[karlhenning]

As a stereotype, it's probably not so far off the mark... although I find that the enthusiastic music lovers I know are almost overwhelmingly left of center (with one, albeit very notable, exception). Not to suggest that political leanings have any influence on our ability to discern good music. Just to fight stereotypes with stereotypes. 

Where do stereotypes enter into this?  Leave it in the realm of this is my own experience, resist the urge to claim it as normative, and voilà! simple statement.

[jochanaan]

Let's make one thing clear:

Bob Dylan SUX EGGS!      As the kids chant at the games: "OVER-RATED!"

Sez you!

I love that Zander quote.  If people would just sit down and LISTEN!

[not edward]

I'm coming late to this thread, but at least one thought occurs to me:

While classical music has always, I think, been a niche interest, I think that interest in classical music is less coupled to social class than people often assume. While I'm aware that the plural of anecdote is not data, a lot of the most hardcore classical listeners (and occasionally, performers) I have known have come from anything but comfortable middle-class backgrounds--as, indeed, have a significant proportion of the great composers and musicians.

I still recall being told by a friend of how he was in one of the nastiest, most violent bars in Dundee and ended up hearing from an excited patron that he had managed to get hold of tickets for Alfred Brendel playing the Schoenberg piano concerto.

[c#minor]

I'm coming late to this thread, but at least one thought occurs to me:

While classical music has always, I think, been a niche interest, I think that interest in classical music is less coupled to social class than people often assume. While I'm aware that the plural of anecdote is not data, a lot of the most hardcore classical listeners (and occasionally, performers) I have known have come from anything but comfortable middle-class backgrounds--as, indeed, have a significant proportion of the great composers and musicians.

I still recall being told by a friend of how he was in one of the nastiest, most violent bars in Dundee and ended up hearing from an excited patron that he had managed to get hold of tickets for Alfred Brendel playing the Schoenberg piano concerto.

I agree that there are listeners from all types of socioeconomic statuses but the attitude of classical music "connoisseurs" (spelling?) have a strong air of pretentiousness about them, at least when it comes to music. Like when someone mispronounces Wagner it will be corrected in a condescending manner (which i have seen more than once). I can understand how it's intimidating for a listener starting off. Even when a new listener comes of the forum and ask for some listening advice people sometimes advise to go out and get some Carter or some other more challenging pieces. Though i'm guilty of exactly that i now realize that 99% of those starting off want "the 4 seasons" rather than Berg's Violin Concerto. i don't know, i guess i am getting more frustrated over time with what i see as an "anti-populas" attitude among that classical music community. I am not saying that complex and more "out there" music is bad or inherently destructive to classical music, it is just the sentiment of "our music is so much better." And I do believe that classical music is the best music, but other people believe that Dylan is the best musician as much as i believe what i believe. And look at todays composers, so many are trying to push and expand the edge of music. Now this is a noble endeavor, but isn't it just as noble to create music that will touch a mass of people? Where is todays Copland? Which composer does the "lay listener" follow?

Am i way off point with this attitude? I love modern composition but it don't love its mentality. Can't we get away from the academic sound and the snobbery occasionally? Can't we try to reach out to the masses?

Sorry to be a "Negative Nancy" but this is something that i've been thinking about long before this thread came up.

[CRCulver]

Though i'm guilty of exactly that i now realize that 99% of those starting off want "the 4 seasons" rather than Berg's Violin Concerto.

I have no qualms recommending (some of the safer) Xenakis or Stockhausen to people I know are into electronica or metal. A lot of younger people who are new to classical music find standard repertoire boring. Starting out, they want something that sounds more aggressive. Over time, they will work their way backwards and find value in earlier music.

Now this is a noble endeavor, but isn't it just as noble to create music that will touch a mass of people? Where is todays Copland

Composers like Danielpour and Golijov try to write music that will touch a mass of people, and the labels market the hell out of them. But for some temporary success in the marketplace, none of what they write proves a real hit, and after a decade or so even most neo-tonal fans find these works lame.