Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

[Karl Henning]

Nice.

[Florestan]

the more intimate the better 

Agreed , and not only with respect to Beethoven. Generally speaking and obvious exceptions aside, for any given composer active from 1800 onward I find the chamber music (solo piano included) to be more compelling and attractive than the orchestral / symphonic one. (An unpopular opinion, maybe?)

[ritter]

Agreed , and not only with respect to Beethoven. Generally speaking and obvious exceptions aside, for any given composer active from 1800 onward I find the chamber music (solo piano included) to be more compelling and attractive than the orchestral / symphonic one. (An unpopular opinion, maybe?)

Unpopular with me, that's for sure.... Nothing greater and more compelling than the Seventh Symphony (just to stick to Beethoven), or, moving further ahead, any of the mature Wagner operas, the late Bruckner symphonies, etc., etc.

But...we can still be friends. 

[Florestan]

Nothing greater and more compelling than the Seventh Symphony (just to stick to Beethoven),

Nothing indeed, except... Archduke Trio, Kreutzer Sonata, a handful of Piano Sonatas and Symphonies 4, 6, 8, 9. 

EDIT: and Piano Concertos 2, 4, 5... and the Violin Concerto... and the Triple Concerto...

or, moving further ahead, any of the mature Wagner operas, the late Bruckner symphonies, etc., etc.

They belong to "obvious exceptions" --- and anyway they are far from being on my list of top 50 favorite composers . 

But...we can still be friends. 

Absolutely. 

[ritter]

Nothing indeed, except... Archduke Trio, Kreutzer Sonata, a handful of Piano Sonatas and Symphonies 4, 6, 8, 9. 

EDIT: and Piano Concertos 2, 4, 5... and the Violin Concerto... and the Triple Concerto...

Curious to see 9 symphonic works by LvB used as examples of how more complleing and attractive  his chamber music is vis-à-vis orchestral oeuvre...

Absolutely. 

All's good, then...

[Mandryka]

Unpopular? I think that's a good point (or at least view). I tend to agree quite a bit there. From Medieval to early romantic, the best or most compelling music is "chamber music" IMO. Whether it's vocal music, Bach fugues, Piano sonatas, String quartets, piano quintets etc. The mid romantic era just stepped the game up so far expression-wise. There is a certain strength that smaller (instrument) numbers has on those eras 

The interesting thing for me is whether you think the same thing applies in the C20, that modern chamber music is more compelling than music for big loud forces. And if not, what's made the difference.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

But again, there's something about the intimacy in Beethoven's chamber music, that I quite like a lot. His signature forcefulness contrasted with lyricism feels more 'closer' and less distant (I guess, if it makes sense) 

These qualities show up everywhere in Beethoven...that's what makes him so popular. He performs (so to speak) on many levels. There's intimacy, humor, resourcefulness, unpredictability, light-heartedness, grandeur, imagination...etc, etc, etc...in pretty much every composition, large-forces or small. At least that's what I hear.

So you may be "calling it" but I call it differently.

[Florestan]

Curious to see 9 symphonic works by LvB used as examples of how more complleing and attractive  his chamber music is vis-à-vis orchestral oeuvre...

Si un hombre nunca se contradice, es porque nunca dice nada. 

All's good, then...

Never been otherwise, afaIc.   

[mc ukrneal]

The piano sonatas are ten times better than the symphonies, so are the Late Quartets.

Based on your other posted listening, I would have thought you would be receptive to the later sonatas anyway. They have a lot of the essence of the music you like (and are key works along the way).

[Jo498]

With most really great composers I find very little difference in quality between their major genres. Beethoven's symphonies are as good as his piano solo and chamber music, same with Haydn and Mozart. Only in the case of Mozart there are comparably few mature symphonies but the last four are as good as his best quartets (and better than his piano solo, I'd say). With Schubert the balance is tilted but the main/only reason is that there is only one completed mature symphony compared to quite a few piano and chamber works of the highest rank.

If one brings vocal music into the mix one might come so somewhat different conclusions but again, I'd say that Beethoven's best vocal music (Missa solemnis and Fidelio) is about as good as it gets, certainly not clearly inferior to his instrumental music but of course there is not so much of it. And the Lieder of which there are many are not quite as good as most of his instrumental stuff but they are overall underrated and some astonishingly good and many charming pieces. (The most perfunctory music by Beethoven I find in some lesser orchestral, chamber, and piano works, like some of the incidental music, early piano variations or woodwind chamber music.)

With Mendelssohn and Schumann I would agree that overall symphonies are maybe not their very best pieces although each wrote at least one symphony that would be a candidate for ranking equal with their best chamber or piano solo (Schumann) music.

So altogether, I disagree with the claim. It holds for some composers to a certain extent but not in general and not for Beethoven.

[PerfectWagnerite]

The piano sonatas are ten times better than the symphonies, so are the Late Quartets.

Only ten times?

[Madiel]

Meh. People respond to different kinds of things. I absolutely adore chamber music, but I'm well aware that there are many people who prefer orchestral works.

And when it comes to Beethoven there are pretty fine things in any genre.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

By far, I certianly don't think he's the greatest composer or person to walk the earth but I give him a thumbs up.

That's very broadminded of you, I'd say. 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

By far, I certianly don't think he's the greatest composer or person to walk the earth but I give him a thumbs up.

Yes, we're happy you're happy...

[Parsifal]

By far, I certianly don't think he's the greatest composer or person to walk the earth but I give him a thumbs up.

Alas, we will never know if he would give you a thumbs up.

[TheGSMoeller]

Bought a really good-conditioned vinyl of this Beethoven's 3rd from HVK/Berlin.

Is this recording from his 1963 cycle? I don't see any dates on the sleeve mentioning a recording date.
Thanks!!! 

[Parsifal]

Yes, that's '63. It has one of the most remarkable recordings of the funeral march I have heard.

[TheGSMoeller]

Yes, that's '63. It has one of the most remarkable recordings of the funeral march I have heard.

Thanks, Scarpia!

[Karl Henning]

Not without reason.

[Mandryka]

Well it's official guys, I'll join the Beethoven bandwagon (just keep those symphonies - except for 7 away from me  )

It'll be Brahms next. And then. . . . Saint Saens maybe.