Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

[Karl Henning]

There you go.  So the controversy is a matter of conductors and orchestras who cannot be bothered to take the composer seriously ; )

[mszczuj]

I have been listening to Paavo Jarvi interpretation of symphonies for the first time. I like it. I would say that it is in my Top 3 (with Goodman/Huggett and Kletzki).

[Bogey]

Query: is there a Beethoven symphonies cycle on period instruments, authentic performances &c which doesn't use the controversial metronome markings?

How did Hogwood (who I enjoy for the early part of the cycle) roll them out?  I can look at the liner notes later, but someone here may know off the top of their head.

[Opus106]

How did Hogwood (who I enjoy for the early part of the cycle) roll them out?  I can look at the liner notes later, but someone here may know off the top of their head.

I haven't heard it (before just now -- wow!), but given what is usually said about the infamous Turkish march (in the recording), I'd guess they probably were not entirely faithful.

[calyptorhynchus]

I mean, do we think that they were not put there by the composer? . . .

In the early days of looking at them people tried to deny they were by Beethoven, that Beethoven understood what he was doing, that his metronome worked &c &c

Nowadays the orthodoxy is that these markings are to be followed, however, some have questioned whether Beethoven in indicating a speed was always referring the beats, or whether in some cases he was referring to the musical figuration, i.e. in a piece with quaver movement in the first bar indicting a speed for a single quaver, even if the beat consisted of two.

As my question indicated, I am fairly happy with the 'traditional' (i.e. mid C20) tempi, and don't like to listen to performances where the tempi are so fast as to garble the music. I would like to hear a cycle that consisted of performances on period instruments that used the 'traditional' tempi.

[not edward]

Take that, Webern and Napalm Death! 

I once knew someone who had been a member of a short-lived (and short-songed) thrash/noise band called Webern Death.

[calyptorhynchus]

In the early days of looking at them people tried to deny they were by Beethoven, that Beethoven understood what he was doing, that his metronome worked &c &c

Sorry, that Beethoven didn't understand....

[Fafner]

Listened today to Beethoven's String Quartet Op 132 (Endellion Quartet).  I think it is becoming one of my favorite works of Beethoven.  Beethoven's late works are characterized by extended slow movements (such as the one in the Hammerklavier Sonata) but I typically find myself getting lost in them.  The central movement of the Op 132 quartet is the exception.  The harmonies that Beethoven creates in the choral-like sections in that movement are nothing short of miraculous. 

If I had to pick a best version of this work, it would probably be the Griller Quartet.  I have it on Decca vinyl, and on CD.

[asin]B00082MXN2[/asin]

[Madiel]

This might seem like an odd question to ask, but...

I've been going through Beethoven's works in opus number order.  And I know that this isn't the same order as composition.  Sometimes things got published quite a while after they were composed.  The first and second piano concertos fall into this category, they are a bit out of order.

But I've just hit opus 32, which is the song 'An Die Hoffnung', and I'm wondering how on earth it got there in the numbering.  On the timeline I'm following it's not going to be written for a couple of years!

Anybody know what happened?

I'm not sure when the opus number system was developed for Beethoven, ie how much of it was contemporaneous and how much was hindsight.  Did someone get the chronology wrong? Did a gap get left at op.32 that needed to be filled?

[Gurn Blanston]

This might seem like an odd question to ask, but...

I've been going through Beethoven's works in opus number order.  And I know that this isn't the same order as composition.  Sometimes things got published quite a while after they were composed.  The first and second piano concertos fall into this category, they are a bit out of order.

But I've just hit opus 32, which is the song 'An Die Hoffnung', and I'm wondering how on earth it got there in the numbering.  On the timeline I'm following it's not going to be written for a couple of years!

Anybody know what happened?

I'm not sure when the opus number system was developed for Beethoven, ie how much of it was contemporaneous and how much was hindsight.  Did someone get the chronology wrong? Did a gap get left at op.32 that needed to be filled?

Bia 421    Op 32   Song: "An die Hoffnung"; from Tiedge's "Urania"; "Die du so gern in heilgen Nächten feierst" (1st setting)   1804 - 1805   Dedicated to Countess Josephine Deym (née Brunsvik); words: Christoph August Tiedge; 2nd setiing is Opus 94

According to Biamonte, who is pretty accurate about these things, this was the first piece that Beethoven wrote after the Appassionata Sonata. So, your questions are certainly legitimate, or at least the one about 'what happened to Op 32 originally?' certainly is.  Since I hadn't noticed this anomaly previously, I haven't researched it yet, but I will, and will get back to you on it ASAP. It is probably something mundane, like a publisher's screw-up, OTOH, it might be a fascinating story of intrigue....

[Madiel]

Thanks. One can only hope for some intrigue! 

I "read ahead" a bit, right up to the "Kreutzer" violin sonata at opus 47, and was consistently hitting things that were published around the 1802-1804 period.  So it really does look a bit odd to have a song most likely written in early 1805 popping up.


Found out something else interesting as well: I knew the Creatures of Prometheus, op.43 was a bit out of date order, as it was written a few years earlier.  It turns out that the piano arrangement of it was actually labelled as op.24.  But then a stuff-up with the violin sonatas happened - with opuses 23 and 24 being published separately instead of as a pair.  Later on, just the overture of the orchestral version of Creatures of Prometheus was published, as op.43, and that's the number we now use for the whole ballet.

[Madiel]

Still slowly wandering through the opuses...

I'm trying to decide which is more astonishing when traversing the works chronologically: the Waldstein sonata, or the Appassionata.  Both of them sound revolutionary.

That 3rd symphony tucked in between them isn't half bad, either...

[Madiel]

Oh. Bringing this thread back up made me realise that I hadn't found an answer to my opus 32 problem yet.

So I e-mailed Professor Barry Cooper. 

And he replied! 

'An die Hoffnung' had no opus number when it was originally published.  It was made op.32 when Artaria made a catalogue in 1819, and tried to fill gaps that had been left in the numbering.  It's all in Kinksy's thematic catalogue, apparently...

[kishnevi]

Speaking of opus numbers, here's a mild conundrum;
How did a piano sonata (Les Adieux, op. 81a) get stitched together with a sextet for horns and strings (op. 81b) (and which was apparently composed in the 1790s  (at least according to this page I just found;
http://www.henle.de/blog/en/2012/02/06/so-how-much-bass-do-you-want-beethoven's-sextet-op-81b/)

I can understand the sextet being published fifteen years after its composition (and in this case, only the parts were printed;  the actual score was not published until the 1840s);  I'm just curious how two very different works were both assigned Op. 81.

[Madiel]

I always assumed it was different publishers jumping for the same opus number independently, each unaware (or uncaring) that the other was going to print.

You have to bear in mind that at this time, composers not only frequently did deals with publishers on a composition-by-composition basis (or a group of compositions), they could also be doing deals with different firms in Vienna, Paris and London all at once.  One of the reasons we don't really use opus numbers for composers such as Mozart or Haydn is because the same piece might be assigned multiple opus numbers, as different publishers in different cities might completely ignore what anyone else had done and only care about their own 'series'.  With Beethoven the situation is slightly improved, but there's still not that much central coordination because the opus numbers still tend to be assigned on the basis of publication, not on the basis of composition.

[Agomongo1235]

"I believe in God, Mozart, and Beethoven"

          ~ Richard Wagner

"There was only Beethoven and Wagner [and] after them, nobody."

          ~ Gustav Mahler




1. What do you think are among Beethoven's greatest achievements?  Most "influential" works?

2. What are your favorite works by Beethoven?  Least favorite?

3. Do you feel that Beethoven's personal challenges (deafness; nephew issues; etc) considerably heightened the emotional content of his music?

4. Any favorite recordings?  Of Symphonies? Piano Sonatas? Concertos?  Chamber?  Overtures?

5. Do you consider Beethoven to be a "classical" (classical era) or "romantic" (romantic era) composer?





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Beethoven Resources:

The Grove Concise Dictionary of Music

Beethoven Haus Bonn

LVBEETHOVEN.COM

Raptus Association for Music Appreciation site on Beethoven

Beethoven the Immortal

The Beethoven Reference Site

One Stop Beethoven Resource

All About LvB

Beethoven Forum

1. Sky rocketing the Classical era in the Romantic

2. His 3rd Symphony is my favorite and I love all his pieces

3. For sure!

4. Karajan's Beethoven 6th recording

5. Romantic because he was the one who transitioned in the Romantic era with his symphonies; his 3rd was the spark and the 5th was the fire

[Karl Henning]

Oh my, some more.

http://www.youtube.com/v/JYjqGh6Lof0

[Carnivorous Sheep]

Happy birthday to dear Ludwig!

[lescamil]

Happy birthday to dear Ludwig!

You mean, happy baptism day! We are not sure what day he was born on. We are only sure what day he was baptized on.

[Karl Henning]

You mean, happy baptism day!

Today! Huzzah! ; )