Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

[Cato]

My 8th Grade Latin students recently completed listening to the Missa Solemnis.  We discussed the way Beethoven handled the Latin text, which they found at times highly eccentric, but so have others.

A little experiment with the work, given that length is one of the eccentricities, was done: I occasionally asked the students to estimate how much time had passed after listening to a section.

The results were fascinating: the Credo is the longest part, coming in at over 17 minutes on my John Eliot Gardiner Archiv CD.

Several of the girls agreed on...5 minutes!       The longest estimate was "10-12" minutes from some of the boys.  They were amazed by the actual length.

I repeated the experiment with the Agnus Dei, which comes in at 13' 30".

Again the lowest was estimate "5 minutes" while the highest was 8.

I did not count an answer of "13 minutes" from one wise guy who had been checking the clock much too openly.   

[Florestan]

You could continue the experiment with Wagner and you might come with the complete reversal: after 5 minutes they might tell you it's been half an hour. 

[Brahmsian]

Reading and perusing many Beethoven biographies and seeing his music manuscripts for his works, a question must be asked:

How on earth could any music publisher decipher his messy chicken scratches?! 

[Karl Henning]

My 8th Grade Latin students recently completed listening to the Missa Solemnis.  We discussed the way Beethoven handled the Latin text, which they found at times highly eccentric, but so have others.

A little experiment with the work, given that length is one of the eccentricities, was done: I occasionally asked the students to estimate how much time had passed after listening to a section.

The results were fascinating: the Credo is the longest part, coming in at over 17 minutes on my John Eliot Gardiner Archiv CD.

Several of the girls agreed on...5 minutes!       The longest estimate was "10-12" minutes from some of the boys.  They were amazed by the actual length.

I repeated the experiment with the Agnus Dei, which comes in at 13' 30".

Again the lowest was estimate "5 minutes" while the highest was 8.

I did not count an answer of "13 minutes" from one wise guy who had been checking the clock much too openly.   

Most interesting. There may be hope for the younger generation yet : )

[Florestan]

Reading and perusing many Beethoven biographies and seeing his music manuscripts for his works, a question must be asked:

How on earth could any music publisher decipher his messy chicken scratches?! 

Hah! Good question: how much Beethoven is really Beethoven and not what the publishers made of the scribblings? 

IIRC the task of preparing them for publishing fell on poor Ries. 

[Karl Henning]

The best education Ries might have wished for ; )

[Florestan]

The best education Ries might have wished for ; )

No doubt and I think he was worthy of it.

[Cato]

You could continue the experiment with Wagner and you might come with the complete reversal: after 5 minutes they might tell you it's been half an hour. 

Wocka Wocka!   

We did discuss the idea of "artistic time" (parallel with "mythic time") and how the great work helps us to eliminate the tick-tocking tyranny of the pendulum and take us to a different realm of consciousness...in this case an illusion of the timelessness of eternity.

Bruckner's Te Deum has had a similar effect on past classes.

[Gurn Blanston]

Reading and perusing many Beethoven biographies and seeing his music manuscripts for his works, a question must be asked:

How on earth could any music publisher decipher his messy chicken scratches?! 

Actually, literally thousands of music students over the years have mastered them to the point of reading them like a printed score. It's true, they are a challenge at the first, but eventually they yield just like Mayan hieroglyphs.

Hah! Good question: how much Beethoven is really Beethoven and not what the publishers made of the scribblings? 

IIRC the task of preparing them for publishing fell on poor Ries. 

Haydn, OTOH, sent in beautifully written out autograph scores to the publishers, and they were engraved with easily as many mistakes as Beethoven's had. He would get so irate that he would refuse to deal with certain publishers for a time. Occupational hazard

[Florestan]

Actually, literally thousands of music students over the years have mastered them to the point of reading them like a printed score. It's true, they are a challenge at the first, but eventually they yield just like Mayan hieroglyphs.

Haydn, OTOH, sent in beautifully written out autograph scores to the publishers, and they were engraved with easily as many mistakes as Beethoven's had. He would get so irate that he would refuse to deal with certain publishers for a time. Occupational hazard

Most interesting. 

[Opus106]

There is also a question concerning the Hammerklavier Sonata, whether an "A" or "A#" should be played in ms. 224-26 of the first movement.

All very interesting.

That I remember from listening to Schiff's lectures. Of course, with the time limitations and the nature of the lecture itself he did not go into details, except to say that he used to play it one way in his younger days, but is now convinced that it should actually be the other.

[Karl Henning]

Anyone considering Matthew Guerrieri's book, The First Four Notes: Beethoven's Fifth and the Human Imagination? (Fair disclosure: I am good friends with an old schoolmate of Matthew's.) I see there are already a couple of misguided negative reviews on Amazon.

[asin]0307593282[/asin]

[Karl Henning]

No, eh? ; )

I'll probably take a closer look at the book to-morrow evening.

[Gurn Blanston]

No, eh? ; )

I'll probably take a closer look at the book to-morrow evening.

I could see the Gurnatron having a go at that. There really aren't a lot of niches left, are there? 

[Karl Henning]

I'll probably take a closer look at the book to-morrow evening.

Read the foreword, and perhaps 10 pp. of the first chapter.  Very promising; that is, I like what I read, without reservation, and will make a point of reading the book in its entirety at some point.

I think that the Amazon dude who found fault with the book for not being a biography of Beethoven, nor ... a musicological analysis of the entire symphony utterly misses the point. Like finding fault with Paris, that it is not Chicago . . . .

[Florestan]

finding fault with Paris, that it is not Chicago . . . .

Yes, that's stupid but then again the other way around... 

[Karl Henning]

All right, faulty example, I own that entirely ; )

[Florestan]

All right, faulty example, I own that entirely ; )

Oh no, not at all, the example was good. It's just that the other way around it's not that stupid to me... 

[calyptorhynchus]

Wondering if anyone has listened to this CD by the pianist Luisa Guembes-Buchanan (Sonatas 28, 30-32 and Diabelli Variations).

What do people think?

[calyptorhynchus]

Sorry, didn't realise the 'Add to Cart' was part of the image.