Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

[Brian]

This new series carries "Historically Informed Performance" to maximum anal retentiveness: played on original instruments, with the exact orchestra/section sizes and platform layouts* used at the premieres, and wherever possible recorded in the actual rooms/halls where the premieres took place. Recorded live. Of course, the actual performances are still matters of interpretation...and they are presumably wearing modern clothing and whatnot.

I'm listening now.



*for the Ninth's premiere, the chorus was placed in front of the orchestra, which they will reportedly do in this series.

[Florestan]

This new series carries "Historically Informed Performance" to maximum anal retentiveness: played on original instruments, with the exact orchestra/section sizes and platform layouts* used at the premieres, and wherever possible recorded in the actual rooms/halls where the premieres took place. Recorded live.

HIP? Bah, humbug! Without at least Mauro Giuliani and Antonio Casimir Cartellieri in the orchestra and Prince Lichnovsky and Archduke Rudolph in the audience, HIP is a joke. 

[Jo498]

Yes, I want to hear princely sneezes and ducal applause!

[Madiel]

Yes, I want to hear princely sneezes and ducal applause!

Well, I don't know what dukes got up to, specifically, but as I understand it audiences back then didn't just sit there listening to the music. We need crowd noise. When they get to the 7th they're going to need a crowd cheering wildly and asking for an encore of the Allegretto.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Apparently, contrary to what most sources claim, Rocco's gold aria from act 1 was originally included in 1806 version of Fidelio, then known as Leonore. I actually prefer the original 1805/1806 versions of the aria, it has more "metallic" sound in it. Apart from some rhytmical changes to match new lyrics, the arias are pretty much the same in 1805 and 1806, in contrast to more apparent orchestration changes in 1814 version.

This site contains 1806 version of the aria, in MIDI, unfortunately:

http://unheardbeethoven.org/search.php?Identifier=hess112

[calyptorhynchus]

Query, I'v notices that in Op 9 and Op 18 (String Trios and String Quartets) Beethoven doesn't write trio sections in his scherzos. Is there any documentation explanation for this? I don't know of any other examples of this from this time.

[Jo498]

Beethoven certainly does write contrasting central sections commonly called "trio". Not all of them might be explicitly called "trio", e.g. in op.18#3 the "trio" is called "Minore" (i.e. section in the minor mode).
This is not uncommon, one will also find "alternativo" or "menuetto II" or no explicit name for the section at all, despite "trio" being most common in the classical era.

Another exception is the 2nd mvmt. of op.18#4 which does not have a trio (but the 3rd movement, Menuetto does). All other "trio" sections from op.18 are called "trio" in my scores.

[calyptorhynchus]

  I'll have to listen more carefully.

[Brian]

Has anyone read this novel?



Deaf as he was, Beethoven had to be addressed in writing, and he was always accompanied by a notebook in which people could scribble questions and comments. Conversations with Beethoven, in a tour de force of fictional invention, tells the story of the last year of Beethoven's life almost entirely through such notebook entries: Friends, family, students, doctors, and others attend to the volatile Maestro, whose sometimes unpredictable and often very loud replies we infer. A fully fleshed and often very funny portrait of Beethoven emerges. He struggles with his music and with his health; he argues with and insults just about everyone. Most of all, he worries about his wayward—and beloved—nephew Karl. A large cast of Dickensian characters surrounds the great composer at the center of this wonderfully engaging novel, which deepens in the end to make a memorable music of its own.

"Conversations with Beethoven is unclassifiable—a novel comprised exclusively of 'oral' speech, that reads rapidly on the page like a kind of music-poetry; a prose poem of numerous voices, in which passion (both declared and undeclared) is the driving force; an intimately detailed double portrait of Beethoven and his nephew Karl that will linger long in the memory, like the most beautiful and enigmatic music."
—Joyce Carol Oates

[(poco) Sforzando]

Has anyone read this novel?

I imagine Beethoven has.

[Scion7]

Without actually doing any research, isn't this a series of photos or reproductions of talk-books and letters, rather than a work of fiction (a novel)?

[Brian]

Without actually doing any research, isn't this a series of photos or reproductions of talk-books and letters, rather than a work of fiction (a novel)?

The paragraphs I posted below the cover image are the official description, by the publisher.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Another exception is the 2nd mvmt. of op.18#4 which does not have a trio.

That's because the movement is in sonata form. The indication "scherzoso" refers to its character, not its structure. (Somewhat similarly, the second movement of the piano sonata in Eb, 31/3, is also like a scherzo in character - albeit in 2/4 time - but it too is definitely in sonata form, unlike the minuet that follows.)

[(poco) Sforzando]

Query, I'v notices that in Op 9 and Op 18 (String Trios and String Quartets) Beethoven doesn't write trio sections in his scherzos. Is there any documentation explanation for this? I don't know of any other examples of this from this time.

This is not really a problem. In the op. 9 1 and 3, the return to the scherzo is completely notated, rather than a da capo. This will happen from time to time especially if the return is varied in some way - as in the last statements of the scherzo sections in the 5th and 7th Symphonies. (My point holds whether you conceive the 5th as being in ABA or ABABA form. I take ABA as Beethoven's final intention.)

[Jo498]

The point where calyptorhynchus is wrong or not listening closely, stands in any case:
All of the scherzo/menuetto movements in op.18 except for the sonata form scherzoso that replaces a slow movement in #4 are in the "traditional" form with a contrasting "trio" section.
(18#3 also has the dacapo written out but this does not change the form and is often hard to tell from merely listening because the changes in written out dacapos are often rather slight.)

Maybe the contrasts are sometimes not strong enough for him to be picked out when listening but this never occurred to me. E.g. in op.18#1 the "trio" starts with a gruff forte unison that is quite distinctive compared to the more brooding main section, followed by excited figures in the first violin. It's a fairly strong contrast, AFAIC. Similarly the minor mode section in #3 or the A flat major trio in #4.

[jlaurson]

Fresh from Forbes:



SEP 29, 2015
Vienna: Premiering Beethoven Symphonies All Over Again

...Comparatively little has been done by way of research into how audiences be-
haved or listened on, or for that matter: where. And whatever has been done,
it hasn't been made visible or audible to audiences in the same way. No matter
how authentic "17th century" the band plays in front of us, audiences still sit on
the other side of the fourth wall as if it were 1977. We treat music from Monteverdi
to Stockhausen as if it were Parsifal. The lights are dimmed, we listen in awed quiet,
are embarrassed if caught snoring, and duly hiss if someone has shown his or her
appreciation at a point that doesn't fit the current convention of when to show
appreciation. (I call those hissers the "Vigilant Applause Police", an odious faction
that happens to overlap considerably with the only slightly less annoying "Eager
Early Clappers"; see the scientific looking, albeit completely speculative Venn
diagram below.)

Historic Venues

Doing just that – researching where music was played – is the raison d'être of
the "Resound" project of the Orchester Wiener Akademie (the Vienna Academy
Orchestra) under organist-cum-conductor-cum-impresario Martin Haselböck.
In seven concerts over two concert seasons, the orchestra will have performed
Beethoven's Nine Symphonies more or less in the venues they were premiered
in. Interestingly that is possible ...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/10/07/vienna-premiering-beethoven-symphonies-all-over-again/

[Brian]

Fresh from Forbes:



SEP 29, 2015
Vienna: Premiering Beethoven Symphonies All Over Again

...Comparatively little has been done by way of research into how audiences be-
haved or listened on, or for that matter: where. And whatever has been done,
it hasn't been made visible or audible to audiences in the same way. No matter
how authentic "17th century" the band plays in front of us, audiences still sit on
the other side of the fourth wall as if it were 1977. We treat music from Monteverdi
to Stockhausen as if it were Parsifal. The lights are dimmed, we listen in awed quiet,
are embarrassed if caught snoring, and duly hiss if someone has shown his or her
appreciation at a point that doesn't fit the current convention of when to show
appreciation. (I call those hissers the "Vigilant Applause Police", an odious faction
that happens to overlap considerably with the only slightly less annoying "Eager
Early Clappers"; see the scientific looking, albeit completely speculative Venn
diagram below.)

Historic Venues

Doing just that – researching where music was played – is the raison d'être of
the "Resound" project of the Orchester Wiener Akademie (the Vienna Academy
Orchestra) under organist-cum-conductor-cum-impresario Martin Haselböck.
In seven concerts over two concert seasons, the orchestra will have performed
Beethoven's Nine Symphonies more or less in the venues they were premiered
in. Interestingly that is possible ...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/10/07/vienna-premiering-beethoven-symphonies-all-over-again/

Quoting this over to the new thread page, and also, Monday MusicWeb published my own article about this series.

"I'm a big admirer of period performances...but this new series gets to the fundamental paradox at the heart of the movement. HIP is not about presenting the music as it was heard during the composer's lifetime, it's about an idealized version. In these live recordings, the audience sits dutifully and respectfully silent. It would have been more accurate if the Orchester Wiener Akademie had invited noblemen and social climbers to gossip and seduce each other in the audience.

"There's another factor also: period performances were nearly as diverse as modern ones. For one thing, the players were mere amateurs compared to today's immaculately trained musicians, who spend years in organized conservatories. Look no further than the tale of the premiere of Beethoven's Fifth and Sixth Symphonies. A reviewer said the orchestra was "lacking in all respects," something that certainly is not true of the superb Orchester Wiener Akademie. During the same concert, as they played the Choral Fantasy, Beethoven actually stopped the orchestra and had them start over. There is no place for this in the HIP movement.

"This is as it should be but then shouldn't the booklet explain the movement's limits? So much is unknowable, and so much of what we do know, we would never want to reproduce. The gesture of as-accurate-as-possible Beethoven is a noble one, but at some point it becomes absurd."

[Gurn Blanston]

Fresh from Forbes:



SEP 29, 2015
Vienna: Premiering Beethoven Symphonies All Over Again

...Comparatively little has been done by way of research into how audiences be-
haved or listened on, or for that matter: where. And whatever has been done,
it hasn't been made visible or audible to audiences in the same way. No matter
how authentic "17th century" the band plays in front of us, audiences still sit on
the other side of the fourth wall as if it were 1977. We treat music from Monteverdi
to Stockhausen as if it were Parsifal. The lights are dimmed, we listen in awed quiet,
are embarrassed if caught snoring, and duly hiss if someone has shown his or her
appreciation at a point that doesn't fit the current convention of when to show
appreciation. (I call those hissers the "Vigilant Applause Police", an odious faction
that happens to overlap considerably with the only slightly less annoying "Eager
Early Clappers"; see the scientific looking, albeit completely speculative Venn
diagram below.)

Historic Venues

Doing just that – researching where music was played – is the raison d'être of
the "Resound" project of the Orchester Wiener Akademie (the Vienna Academy
Orchestra) under organist-cum-conductor-cum-impresario Martin Haselböck.
In seven concerts over two concert seasons, the orchestra will have performed
Beethoven's Nine Symphonies more or less in the venues they were premiered
in. Interestingly that is possible ...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/10/07/vienna-premiering-beethoven-symphonies-all-over-again/

I'm envious, Jens: Wiener Akademie/Haselböck is one of my favorite ensembles, and the challenge they undertook here is so appealing to my personal attachment to the music!  As far as music goes, I live for this stuff, never for another perfect performance that sounds like a studio CD recording, but for the sort of rough-and-tumble realism which you describe so nicely. I didn't see a mention of a possible set of recordings coming out of this, have you heard anything? They usually record on Novalis, but I know someone in Zurich.... 

[Brian]

I'm envious, Jens: Wiener Akademie/Haselböck is one of my favorite ensembles, and the challenge they undertook here is so appealing to my personal attachment to the music!  As far as music goes, I live for this stuff, never for another perfect performance that sounds like a studio CD recording, but for the sort of rough-and-tumble realism which you describe so nicely. I didn't see a mention of a possible set of recordings coming out of this, have you heard anything? They usually record on Novalis, but I know someone in Zurich.... 

They are recording all nine symphonies for Alpha!! Nos. 1 and 2 are already out. Very good performances, although if you played me all the HIP Beethoven 1/2 recordings out there without telling me which is which, I don't know if I could recognize which one is the new one.

[Pat B]

Good point about diversity, Brian. For all we know, historical performances may have been more diverse than modern ones. I think that's reflected in the modern HIP/PI movement. There is a notion that HIP is about the One True Way to perform a piece, but that notion is almost always perpetuated by HIP's opponents, not its advocates.