Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)

[Sergeant Rock]

Wagner's statement is the epitome of lunacy, and Mahler's statement is simply untrue. Who in the world was Mahler? what did he already compose? Long extended rubbery interludes full of strident outbursts. I can think of a 100 composers that came after Wagner who were better then him, and I can think of a handful of composers who were greater then Beethoven. So Mahler's comments are simply wrong.

Saul, you wrote that and then replied to MI with this:

You have a great dislike for those who don't confirm to your line of thinking. Would be nice to grow out of this, its a great limitation trust me to dislike and not tolerate alternative point of view and different lines of thinking.

Maybe you should take you own advice

Sarge

[Jo498]

Wagner was all for "false idols" and he is far from his worst in the passage quoted because his favorite idol was himself
But it is not very enlightening to try to understand Wagner or that quotation from the stance that combining God, Mozart and Beethoven in such a sentence will take the name of the Lord in vain and create false idols.

[28Orot]

Saul, you wrote that and then replied to MI with this:

Maybe you should take you own advice

Sarge

What does this have to do with anything? the difference is staggering...think about it.

[28Orot]

Wagner was all for "false idols" and he is far from his worst in the passage quoted because his favorite idol was himself
But it is not very enlightening to try to understand Wagner or that quotation from the stance that combining God, Mozart and Beethoven in such a sentence will take the name of the Lord in vain and create false idols.

Yes good point

[PaulR]

What does this have to do with anything? the difference is staggering...think about it.

So when you question others thinking, they shouldn't get mad because it's something they need to grow out of.  But when people question your beliefs, we should conform to your beliefs.  Got it.

Did Wagner have a big ego?  Yes.  Was he Nationalistic?  Yes.  But to criticize him over him supposedly elevating Beethoven God-hood by you taking a quote out of the context of his musical era is unfair and, ultimately, ignorant.  You take a quote out of context and claim that's all we have to go by.  That we have take it at face value, which we cannot.

[28Orot]

So when you question others thinking, they shouldn't get mad because it's something they need to grow out of.  But when people question your beliefs, we should conform to your beliefs.  Got it.

Did Wagner have a big ego?  Yes.  Was he Nationalistic?  Yes.  But to criticize him over him supposedly elevating Beethoven God-hood by you taking a quote out of the context of his musical era is unfair and, ultimately, ignorant.  You take a quote out of context and claim that's all we have to go by.  That we have take it at face value, which we cannot.

I'm sorry but if you can't understand the difference I'm not going to explain to you something so elementary. And the quote in its entirety was posted here and it only supported my criticism.

[PaulR]

Do you even know where the quote was lifted from?  Do you know the context?  Do you even care?

[mc ukrneal]

I'm sorry but if you can't understand the difference I'm not going to explain to you something so elementary. And the quote in its entirety was posted here and it only supported my criticism.

Actually, you seem to have missed some of the nuance of the quote and thus the entirety of it has passed you by. This is because you insist on reading it literally (black and white), which prevents any discussion if this is the only way you will read it (which is what you wrote, and I am taking you at your word since it was so emphatic and repeated).

[jlaurson]

To the others: Could we just stop feeding the troll and maybe hope it goes away? This is absurd and it is decidedly not what most (any?) of us read the Beethoven thread for.
It wasn't ever a serious argument to begin with and any serious engagement with it will be met with nonsense...
(The Block-function helps immensely in not being tempted by the aggressively non-sensical bait.)

[28Orot]

Could we just stop feeding the troll and maybe hope it goes away? This is absurd and it is decidedly not what most (any?) of us read the Beethoven thread for.
It wasn't ever a serious argument to begin with and any serious engagement with it will be met with nonsense...

Ah, too bad I'm not a conformist, then I would be loved and liked by all, but would be robbed from my freedom of speech...

Ah... thanks but no thanks, will continue expressing my views...

[(poco) Sforzando]

To the others: Could we just stop feeding the troll and maybe hope it goes away? This is absurd and it is decidedly not what most (any?) of us read the Beethoven thread for.
It wasn't ever a serious argument to begin with and any serious engagement with it will be met with nonsense...
(The Block-function helps immensely in not being tempted by the aggressively non-sensical bait.)

I would no more want to censor Saul than I would want to eliminate the music of Dittersdorf.

[jlaurson]

I would no more want to censor Saul than I would want to eliminate the music of Dittersdorf.

No one (well, not I, for sure) wants to do either. You are buying the absurd self-victimizing twist of his response which has little to do (as always, when responding to others) with what I wrote.
I merely suggested that deliberately non-constructive and flaming conduct (a.k.a. "trolling") and the gleefully projected inability to communicate is best ignored in such a forum (or, if involuntary, best tended to by professionals in the required field... and still ignored by the forum.) There's no censorship in ignoring "Saul". Only sanity.

P.S. I kind of dig Dittersdorf.

Speaking of Beethoven: Anyone else heard the new Berlin/Rattle cycle yet? Apart from not fitting on any shelf ever made for CDs (the basic presumptuousness of these Berlin releases), I've read two reviews on MWeb; one crappy shill and one decent blow-by-blow of the DVD. So far, I've listened to a few symphonies only, not overly attentive, and found it good... certainly better than the lackluster Sibelius. But no opinion has yet been formed. (That Abbado's Last Concert, though... my goodness. What a tedious bore. If I didn't know Abbado's "Italian" Symphony, I wouldn't have guessed that Mendelssohn (never mind Berlioz!) could be performed so soporifically.)

[28Orot]

No one (well, not I, for sure) wants to do either. You are buying the absurd self-victimizing twist of his response which has little to do (as always, when responding to others) with what I wrote.
I merely suggested that deliberately non-constructive and flaming conduct (a.k.a. "trolling") and the gleefully projected inability to communicate is best ignored in such a forum (or, if involuntary, best tended to by professionals in the required field... and still ignored by the forum.) There's no censorship in ignoring "Saul". Only sanity.

P.S. I kind of dig Dittersdorf.

Speaking of Beethoven: Anyone else heard the new Berlin/Rattle cycle yet? Apart from not fitting on any shelf ever made for CDs (the basic presumptuousness of these Berlin releases), I've read two reviews on MWeb; one crappy shill and one decent blow-by-blow of the DVD. So far, I've listened to a few symphonies only, not overly attentive, and found it good... certainly better than the lackluster Sibelius. But no opinion has yet been formed. (That Abbado's Last Concert, though... my goodness. What a tedious bore. If I didn't know Abbado's "Italian" Symphony, I wouldn't have guessed that Mendelssohn (never mind Berlioz!) could be performed so soporifically.)

Everything I have said until now is absurd, self victimizing , puritan, outrageous, and incomprehensible...

This tells me that I'm on the rite direction. The cliche that the truth must be found in the majority has been proven wrong time and again...

You continue with calling names, and I will continue speaking my mind...

[(poco) Sforzando]

You are buying the absurd self-victimizing twist of his response which has little to do (as always, when responding to others) with what I wrote.

I would say not. But to connect the thread, one must trace it back to other of my comments.

[28Orot]

"Heaven" is a construct of the collective imagination, created by humans, so it can be anything you want it to be. Music is a structured series of sounds, created by humans, so it can be anything you want it to be. So, music = heaven. QED.  Friday morning philosophy makes me sick... 

Feels like heaven, but then there is 'The Heaven'. Wagner mixed everything up he took his love for music and idolized it. I find it reprehensible, and illogical.

[Mirror Image]

(The Block-function helps immensely in not being tempted by the aggressively non-sensical bait.)

I'm way ahead of you here, Jens. After what transpired on this thread the other night, I had no choice but to ignore him. There's no reasoning with someone who seems like their sole mission is to spout out inaccuracies and unwarranted 'opinions' like a faucet with a broken handle.

[Mirror Image]

Speaking of Beethoven: Anyone else heard the new Berlin/Rattle cycle yet? Apart from not fitting on any shelf ever made for CDs (the basic presumptuousness of these Berlin releases), I've read two reviews on MWeb; one crappy shill and one decent blow-by-blow of the DVD. So far, I've listened to a few symphonies only, not overly attentive, and found it good... certainly better than the lackluster Sibelius. But no opinion has yet been formed. (That Abbado's Last Concert, though... my goodness. What a tedious bore. If I didn't know Abbado's "Italian" Symphony, I wouldn't have guessed that Mendelssohn (never mind Berlioz!) could be performed so soporifically.)

I haven't heard Rattle's newest Beethoven (hell, I haven't even heard his older cycle). Perhaps you could tell me what your favorite Beethoven symphony cycle is and why? Would be curious to get an opinion here from you.

[Madiel]

I'm way ahead of you here, Jens.

I wasn't. I was right behind.

[Mirror Image]

I wasn't. I was right behind.

[jlaurson]

I haven't heard Rattle's newest Beethoven (hell, I haven't even heard his older cycle). Perhaps you could tell me what your favorite Beethoven symphony cycle is and why? Would be curious to get an opinion here from you.

Hmm... mine are probably Jaervi, Vanska, Abbado/Rome (one of the few cases where my rapid cooling on Abbado over the last years has not taken hold), Barenboim, Gardiner... HvK 70 is interesting, in that it is the most "Karajanesque" of them all, without yet making it ludicrous... I like Kletzki... and I need to listen to Kubelik a little closer. Oh, Chailly, I thought was rather good. A bit the modern successor to the Barenboim set, with its dark, deeply stained wood... but more agile and more aggressive. More anon.