Was Beethoven romanticism or realism?

[Rod Corkin]

     Really? You hear no commonalities between the string quartets of Beethoven and Schubert? How about the symphonies Beethoven and Mendelssohn? Or the piano chamber music of Beethoven and Schumann?
     How about his violin concerto, or his 4th & 5th piano concertos, how do they sound baroque-ish to you? The 6th, 7th, and 8th symphonies? Is there no melodrama in the 5th symphony, or the string quartet op.132?

Well of course Schubert started imitating Beethoven after he got tired of imitating Mozart and Haydn, but you have totally failed to understand the meaning of my previous statement, so really I'm afraid you have not responded to it. Sorry. There is no melodrama at all in the 5th, if you think there is then you need to look up the word in the dictionary, sorry again.

In fact I'll do it for you, the reference to melodrama at Dictionary.com will suffice:

a dramatic form that does not observe the laws of cause and effect and that exaggerates emotion and emphasizes plot or action at the expense of characterization.

As I said, there is no melodrama in Beethoven, his drama is spontaneous, natural and never contrived, whereas melodrama is overflowing in the Romantic age. The term 'melodramatic' is not a compliment, it is a critisism.

[Dana]

Do you say that melodrama is an exclusive province of the Romantics? I think not!

Neither would anyone who has heard a Bachian fugue

[Rod Corkin]

Rod, could you please provide some examples?  I've never thought of Beethoven and Baroque music, other than his admiration of both Handel and Bach.

I suspect you've been listening to the wrong kind of Beethoven I'm afraid. But I never said Beethoven was Baroque, I said emotively it seems to me his music looks back to the Baroque, whilst still generally observing the Classical forms. The drama, grandure and nobility of Handel are certainly features you find in Beethoven but don't find in Schubert.

[Gurn Blanston]

...In fact I'll do it for you, the reference to melodrama at Dictionary.com will suffice:

a dramatic form that does not observe the laws of cause and effect and that exaggerates emotion and emphasizes plot or action at the expense of characterization.

As I said, there is no melodrama in Beethoven, his drama is spontaneous, natural and never contrived, whereas melodrama is overflowing in the Romantic age. The term 'melodramatic' is not a compliment, it is a critisism.

Actually, it is only a criticism as such in more modern times. The 'melodram' arose in the Classical Era simultaneously with the singspiel, and was not considered to be a derogatory term until it was taken over the top in later times. All it meant at the beginning was 'musical drama', and in that sense, Beethoven was quite a master at it. Plenty of drama in his music, although it never exceeds the bounds of good taste.

[Rod Corkin]

Actually, it is only a criticism as such in more modern times. The 'melodram' arose in the Classical Era simultaneously with the singspiel, and was not considered to be a derogatory term until it was taken over the top in later times. All it meant at the beginning was 'musical drama', and in that sense, Beethoven was quite a master at it. Plenty of drama in his music, although it never exceeds the bounds of good taste.

I am referring to melodrama in the modern critical context!  

Perhaps one could equally say Beethoven was in a class of his own, but then that would make this topic rather redundant.

[Dana]

Emotively Beethoven has little or nothing in common with his Late Classical/Early Romantic contemporaries.

Well of course Schubert started imitating Beethoven after he got tired of imitating Mozart and Haydn...

      I'm having a tough time reconciling these statements, seeing as how imitation implies commonalities... As for your definition of melodrama, anyone can look the word up in the dictionary. In fact, I found a different definition up here which supports my claim of melodrama meaning a type of drama which is over-the top, and incredibly emotive. If you want to actually prove that Beethoven had little in common with his early romantic brethren, you're gonna have to do better than letting a dictionary do your arguing for you.

[Gabriel]

I am referring to melodrama in the modern critical context!  

While in the technical musical context, Beethoven did compose melodramas, for example in Egmont, Fidelio and the incidental music for Leonore Prohaska.

[imperfection]

He was a romantic classicist, as opposed to the classical romantics like Mendelssohn, Brahms, Dvorak ect.

Aside from spelling the short-hand of Et cetera wrong, this post is absolutely perfect.

[Rod Corkin]

     I'm having a tough time reconciling these statements, seeing as how imitation implies commonalities... As for your definition of melodrama, anyone can look the word up in the dictionary. In fact, I found a different definition up here which supports my claim of melodrama meaning a type of drama which is over-the top, and incredibly emotive. If you want to actually prove that Beethoven had little in common with his early romantic brethren, you're gonna have to do better than letting a dictionary do your arguing for you.

Dana I don't think you've grasped what I have been saying at all. You're just going to have to learn to think 'outside the box', to use that unfortunate phrase, something I know is difficult for most classical music fans. Anyway I've said my bit on this subject. 

[Dana]

      You stated an opinion, and ever since then you've been saying things like "you're listening to the wrong kind of Beethoven," and "you need to think outside of the box." I'm not seeing any examples or evidential support. Is it any wonder I haven't grasped what you're saying? If I tried to turn an essay in with that kind of support or proof, I'd get it back with a C+ and the comments "Nice try, next time write a real thesis." Please, go into further detail. We're smart people, we can handle it

[MishaK]

The ending that won't end and keeps repeatedly ending and ending and still not ending at the end of the last movement of the 5th symphony is plenty melodramatic by any definition.