...please SQs me...

[snyprrr]

I do like the harpsicord cto.
I suppose, for me, a lot of modern Polish, Baltic, Czech, etc., music has a post-DSCH, bitter, grey, rainy, "iron curtain" sound that I can only take when I "need" that kind of stuff. Could you say that the Gorecki SQs could be counted as Penderecki SQs if he had written some during his "morbid Romantic" 1976-1982 phase? Please check the Penderecki thread for my last post. I have a question you could answer. Post-1980 Halffter I have the same problem with. I'll go to the library today and get the Gorecki again.

Just ordered Mossolov/Roslavets/Knipper SQs...$6!!!

[Lethevich]

Maciek - thanks for the description of the Gorecki SQs. It is very contrary to my previous opinion of them, which were that they were nice, but (especially the second) very melodically simplistic and lacking interest. I'll see if I can listen to them with fresh ears sometime. I was certainly listening to them as "neo accessible" music rather than avant-garde.

[snyprrr]

I am listening to Gorecki 1, Already It Is Dusk.
I'm in the middle "allegro deciso". Ahhh...I can only hear a note so many times!!!  It's on purpose, right?  I understand if he's making a political statement.
It's almost over now, fading out on the cantus...
All of a sudden it seems very short slow/fast/slow SQ. But it's the non-melodies coupled with the hammering ostinatos that drive me up the wall.

Gorecki No.2 Quasi una Fantasia starts off ominous.
It's the fourth time through, and that endless single note cello ostinato...this reminds me of 1970s Penderecki with a hint of 80s Halffter, no? True minimalism.
I'm in the march now. Very DSCH8. Is that a Bartok/Janacek melody fleeting by? I guess it's the endless single note 1-2 1-2 bass. This kind of thing, for me, sounds better with guitars and drums (heavy metal), and maybe that's what I object to: David Harrington, in his zeal to bring SQ music to the masses, enlists Gorecki to write a "heavy metal" Shostakovich SQ so that really really cool people can like SQs too. I'm just not sure Vasks, Gubaidulina, Gorecki, and Kancheli, or even Schnittke for that matter (well,ok), have successfully transfered the DSCH "mantle". I guess I question the depth of their spirituality, the "holy" in the minimalism. I get the sense that they operate in 2 modes:

A) long slow meditative hymns
B) variations on the Shosty parody "death march."

Well, I'm almost at the end. Track 5, at @4:30, Philip Glass actually pops in for a moment! Why is there no rythmic variation at all, always 1-2 1-2? I think someone asked why I liked the Glass and Bryars SQs since I can't stand them. Whatever Glass' merits, I just find that Kronos disc easy on the ears. Gorecki kind of does the same thing, but so aggressively brutal that my ears cry out. Maybe the Olympia disc's sound and performance give a different perspective. You must admit it is cruel or brutal of Gorecki to hammer the audience like that if he's doing it on purpose, which he must be. Forgive me for wearing the subject out, but I know some composers despise their audience and want to inflict pain upon them (not saying Gorecki...or Cage). Either way, I will surely be listening to it more in the coming week.

EMI Poland? Ah, drool...

[Maciek]

The Olympia recording is definitely more brutal (that's what I like about it), so it probably won't work for you either. I admire your perseverance but I think you really shouldn't torture yourself like this. You clearly don't like the music, why bother with it?

Nevertheless, I'll add some more thoughts. For the sake of idle chat.

The ostinatos come from folk music, at least that's how I hear it. As do the constantly appearing fifths. You will find similiar things (though less pronounced) in Szymanowski's Harnasie (the repetitive violin motives). And in goral music itself, of course. As for other quotations, the 1st SQ uses music from Waclaw of Szamotuly's motet in the canons that come at the beginning. According to Thomas, in the 2nd SQ there's (developed) material from Chopin's Polonaise in D Minor, as well as the refrence to Silent Night and something Gorecki calls "Beethovenian chords". There are quotations in the 3rd Quartet as well (Szymanowski's 2nd SQ, Schubert's Death and the Maiden and I think I hear a bit from Beethoven at one point but haven't found any written confirmation of this).

I still think the link to Shostakovich is tenuous at best (I don't hear it at all! but I'll listen again). Shostakovich had extremely little or no influence on Polish composers, especially those of Gorecki's generation. The only notable exception I can think of is Krzysztof Meyer, and even there it's rather difficult to pin it down.

My way of tracing the link between Gorecki's avantgardism and his minimalism goes along the following route. First there are pieces like Scontri or the Genesis cycle. The notation looks like Penderecki and the link here is strong because, frankly, Penderecki's music from the 1950s-60s is extremely simple. I mean, there are only so many nuances you can notate using a black smudge over the staves or a series of triangles pointing in various directions. So it's usually a series of very simple orchestral "sounds", lined up in a given order. And I think even at that point Gorecki is a bit simpler than Penderecki (and definitely much simpler than composers such as Serocki or Schaeffer who were closer to British complexity). What he does next is he takes it even further, in pieces such as Refrain or the earlier Musiquettes, by deliberately stripping the music of variety. So a whole piece can be build up of only two or three contrasting "sounds", lined up in one order or another, with (sometimes) slight dynamic variations. And then, around Musiquette IV (probably earlier, I don't know his output that well), he adds obsessive, repetitive rhythmic patterns. Add to that the element of a very simple, rudimentary melody (which really doesn't function as a melody, since it's rarely developed in any significant way; it's just a snippet repeated over and over, then suddenly abandoned, then it returns in the same form, etc. etc.) and you've got the formula of the 3rd Symphony and other "later" pieces (the rhythms are slow but they're there). (BTW, all this is a purely musical development. There's no "spiritual" background, I don't think.)

That's my way of looking at it but it may be flawed, since, as I say, I don't know every piece he composed and even of the ones I do know I only know a few well. Plus I may be listening the wrong way.

BTW, you can't underestimate the significance of folk music either. The 2nd mvt of the Harpsichord Concerto is a variation on the Krzesany dance and all the basic elements of that dance are there (or so I've heard, I don't really know that much about the dance myself).

Very often Gorecki's "melodies" are variations or quotations of snippets taken from music by other composers. Which proves again that they are meant to be rudimentary, they are not the "meat" of the piece.

[Maciek]

I think I've written more on the Szymanski EMI disc in the Szymanski thread. (On this board or the old one.)

[Maciek]

Oh, dear, look at the time! I've got work to do!

[Fëanor]

Less often mentioned SQ's that are favourites of mine are:

• William Alwyn: No. 2 "Spring Waters"
• György Ligeti:  No. 1 "Métamorphoses nocturnes"

[snyprrr]

Maciek, your response drove me into a blind rage .

[Maciek]

 

[snyprrr]

• William Alwyn: No. 2 "Spring Waters"

I have been trying to get someone to comment on the Alwyn and Arnold SQs for some time. I think "Spring Waters" has made it on a few lists, and I'm really thinking about buying out the Maggini discography!

Rawsthorne is the dark horse. Last on the list are Maconchy and Frankel (though, with him, I'd probably go back to the Clarinet Qnt.).

I used to have have a lot of British SQs: Simpson, Bliss, Delius, Howells, V-W No.1, Bridge No.3, Tippett 1-4, maybe some others, but I could never find the "English Pastoral" SQ (Moeran?). All I have left is Vaughn-Williams No.2 and Britten 2-3. I was going to start again where I left off, and the Arnold and Alwyn are at the top of the list (I'm not looking for pastoral anymore: Finzi didn't really write an SQ). I'm hoping their latter SQs live up to their rep., broody and a little gritty, which I believe they will; but Rawsthorne keeps nagging, too.

How about the Maggini, huh?
Anyone have any experience with Davies' Naxos Quartets 1-10? I have only heard bad things.

[Fëanor]

I have been trying to get someone to comment on the Alwyn and Arnold SQs for some time. I think "Spring Waters" has made it on a few lists, and I'm really thinking about buying out the Maggini discography!
...
How about the Maggini, huh?
Anyone have any experience with Davies' Naxos Quartets 1-10? I have only heard bad things.

I recently acquired both the Alwyn and Arnold by Maggini.  I'm still coming to terms with the Arnold which are new to me.  But I highly recommend the Alwyn which are, IMO, a bit of a step up from the Rasumovsky version that I had earlier.

[Maciek]

As for other quotations, the 1st SQ uses music from Waclaw of Szamotuly's motet in the canons that come at the beginning.

Since this is a staple of Polish Renaissance music, there have to be recordings available for free out there but I just can't find them today (totally forgot about YouTube, which should have been my first stop! ). FWIW, there are quite a few commercial recordings available.

[Fëanor]

...

How about the Maggini, huh?
Anyone have any experience with Davies' Naxos Quartets 1-10? I have only heard bad things.

I have Naxos Quartets 1 - 4 and enjoy them once in a while.  I wouldn't say they are "bad" in any sense, although it's not a high priority for me to get Nos. 5 - 10 which are now all available.

[snyprrr]

I'm wondering if someone here bought MY COPY! (which I had reserved for myself!) of Maconchy's SQs 5-8 that I found on Amazon...for $1.99!!! $1.99, when the rest were going for $40+. Ohhh...ah, well Betty, maybe some day...

hrrumph!

[snyprrr]

So I ordered the Arnold and Alwyn SQs on Naxos/Maggini instead. Just God's way of redirecting my buying, I guess,haha (yea, right- just MY way of avoiding the pain of loss!)..

[Fëanor]

So I ordered the Arnold and Alwyn SQs on Naxos/Maggini instead. Just God's way of redirecting my buying, I guess,haha (yea, right- just MY way of avoiding the pain of loss!)..

Well, with benefit of hindsight on my part, I'd say that Arnold and Alwyn are the better choice than Davies' Naxos Quartets.  The Alwyn album is a clear winner, IMO.  I'm listening to the Arnold right now and enjoying them although it's only my 2nd or 3rd listening.

[snyprrr]

I just got Roslavets/Mossolov/Knipper SQs on ArteNova. The Borodins play R+M w/Schnittke No.1, but this was only $3!

I'm saving the Mossolov for after dinner. The Roslavets No.1 and No.3 (as with most of his other output...other SQs are MIA) strike me as fin d'siecle?, slightly decaying Bergian decadence, slightly more creepy, but slightly more polite, too. Both are single mvmts of @10min. Both are atonal, and as such remind me of Valen and Pijper and Berg. They are seperated by ten years which allows you to hear Roslavets' congealing style. Oh, did I mention Scriabin? There's certainly nothing overtly Russian here, but the "politeness" suggests a Russian conservatism to me. Maybe there is a slight northern tinge, maybe it's my vivid imagination. Chromatic motives up and down mixed with a droopy/soaring/fleeting melodic world totally bespeak the early 20th century. Ultimately, they sound conservative to today's ears (unlike Stravinsky's contemporaneous "3 Pieces"), very nostalgic (maybe THAT's the Russian I hear). Someone also said they heard a bit of late Frank Bridge, but the closest thing is Berg's Op.3.

The Knipper No.3 comes from the other end of the spectrum, 1974. The differing recording venue reminds me of those tight airless VoxBox SQs "Old World Composers in the New World." This music is slightly attractive, being built on folk material which at moments really gives a sense of the vastness of the motherland. Though not as attractive as Prokofiev's and Myaskovsky's forays into "Kardashian"? territory, or Bartok's, Knipper's SQ is like a tiny painting. It's four mvmts last only 10min. I detect teensy evidence of "futurist/mechanistic" pulses in the background, but only for time effect. Mostly everything is fiddle music. There is something American here in the still passages.
This is desk drawer music, extremely intimate and dare I say highly nostalgic in the Russian tradition, written by an old man, in whom I hear not bitterness but resignation (perhaps too strong a word), no, longing for utopia. At 10min, a perfect postcard.

Getting ready to sink my teeth into the Mossolov. hmmm...what of Lourie's SQs 1-3 on ASV? Anyone? I hear No.1 (1914) is pretty out there. And that WOULD complete the survey of early modern Russian SQs, no?

[snyprrr]

A totally virgin listen to Mossolov's No.1.(1927).
Well, first off I was completely "mis"-appointed: it sounded almost nothing as I had imagined.

25min: 4 mvmts, the first of which lasts 15min (this I knew).

"Creepy" isn't the right word. Pre-historic heavy metal? It's like kindergarten autopsy/lobotomized Penderecki? Either way, it's one of the most disturbingly disjointed amalgams of Frankenstonian Berlin decadence I've heard. But very dry and clean...this killer knows his anatomy and how not to make a mess as he's making his monster. I do hate saying "horror movie music", and it's not, because that kind of music never rises to this level. No, this would be a pretty awesome horror movie. Tenderness of the Wolves, perhaps.

It starts off in unique fashion, and then settles between lullaby brooding and vicious attacks. This SQ seems slightly less-than-human, very manufactured (hence the futurism). The famous motor rhythms aren't really what I'd imagined, though...ha, there's even a little cello tapping...there's a lot of starting and stopping, things cut and pasted in collage fashion.

I had really built this SQ up in my mind as some kind of out of the blue miracle, but the reality of it leaves me with the same gritty feeling I get after listening to Scelsi No.1. It does slightly leave the impression of madness, though I assume it is on purpose. I hear short-circuiting robots dancing with ghosts? It was inevitable that I was going to hear an SQ like this one day. Had it been written in 1983 I would hate it, so does that make it a masterpiece? Haha...it just has an inevitability about it that is very creepy conceptually.

Musty and antisceptic at the same time! Very disturbing.

[Fëanor]

snyprrr, you're on quite the SQ rampage:  good for you!  0:)

Don't know if whether you are already aware of them, but I recently discovered the following:

Henri-Joseph Rigel (1741-1799): Quatuors dialogués, Opus 10

These are really spritely and engaging quartets.

[snyprrr]

I just received The Alban Berg Quartet Complete Teldec Recordings Box (8cd/$40). Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, Brahms, Dvorak, Berg, Webern, Urbanner. This will be my first serious study of all the late Mozart and Brahms 1-3. Oh boy, yum yum...fetch my bathrobe!

Party in the jacuzzi !!!