Composers' Dirty Laundry

[springrite]

I will spend one week or more (maybe one month?) listening only to composers mentioned on this thread. I will be missing Haydn, Dvorak, Carter, etc. for sure, but I am sure it will be quite an exciting musical ride.

[springrite]

They say Mozart was buttocks-obsessed

Mozart had good taste in more ways than one.

[Todd]

Does any of this matter at all

I have to say, that Wagner's anti-semiticism repels me from the operas.

You ask an unusual question, and then offer an unusual remark.  Szymanowski and Britten and Saint-Saens were all allegedly (or more than allegedly) pedophiles - that is, criminals in today's world.  And quite rightly so.  How is that somehow easier to take than Wagner's anti-Semitism in terms of accepting a composer's music?  Such a distinction makes no sense, and strikes me as a bit disingenuous.   Anti-Semitism is worse than pedophilia.  Really?  Personally, I find both pedophiles and anti-Semites unsavory and make it a point to avoid anyone who falls into either category - or would, if people who fell into either category advertised their predilections. 

Yet I listen to the music of Szymanowski, in particular, and Britten and Saint-Saens to a lesser degree.  I also listen to Wagner and other composers who held unpleasant views, as well as artists who did and probably due.  I don't really care about artists' private lives, I care about their art. 

They say Mozart was...probably a coprophiliac.

Who is 'they'?

[Dr. Dread]

I had to look that up. 

[Homo Aestheticus]

Todd,

Who is 'they'?

From a cursory reading of biographies that topic comes up frequently.

[Dundonnell]

You ask an unusual question, and then offer an unusual remark.  Szymanowski and Britten and Saint-Saens were all allegedly (or more than allegedly) pedophiles - that is, criminals in today's world.  And quite rightly so.  How is that somehow easier to take than Wagner's anti-Semitism in terms of accepting a composer's music?  Such a distinction makes no sense, and strikes me as a bit disingenuous.   Anti-Semitism is worse than pedophilia.  Really?  Personally, I find both pedophiles and anti-Semites unsavory and make it a point to avoid anyone who falls into either category - or would, if people who fell into either category advertised their predilections. 

Yet I listen to the music of Szymanowski, in particular, and Britten and Saint-Saens to a lesser degree.  I also listen to Wagner and other composers who held unpleasant views, as well as artists who did and probably due.  I don't really care about artists' private lives, I care about their art. 




Who is 'they'?

I am glad that we are, at least, in agreement on the central point I don't really care about artists' private lives either. I, too, care about their art.

If my post read as though I was equating Wagner's opinions and views with the accusations levelled against other composers then that was a fault caused by an incapacity to express myself properly. I would not wish to make any such comparison...one way or the other.

The point that I was, inadequately, attempting to make was that there is often some aspect of a composer's life, personality, creed, predelictions to which, for whatever reason, we might wish to take exception. These will differ from person to person and in degree. If, however, our disapproval, disdain, disgust, or whatever interposes between the music and our appreciation or enjoyment of that music then that is unfortunate. For some it becomes an insurmountable barrier. There are clearly those who simply cannot listen to Wagner's music for reasons which are entirely extra-musical. I cannot agree with such an attitude but I totally respect the position.

[springrite]

I had to look that up. 

Yes, first look up, then look down.


Finally, turn your head and cough...

[Dr. Dread]

I thought Mozart just liked fart jokes. 

[Homo Aestheticus]

Dave,

I thought Mozart just liked fart jokes. 

Apparently it went further than that...

http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=17722

[snyprrr]

There's a lot of "I don't care about the private lives, it's the art" in this thread.

This is kind of the crux of my temptation here. Yes, what IS that "line in the sand?"

Take Szymanowski. For the sake of arguement, let's just say he's like the "worst person ever." Now, musically, I have to admit that his music is the most hallucinatory, swooning, ecstatic, sensuous, etc., I've ever heard. I just cannot deny that he does stuff that's just, well, if you like it, then you know. Swooning Orphic ecstasy.

Now, let's say you grew up with this music, he's your favorite composer, and then, all of a sudden, you find out he...let's say...either pulled a Fritzl...or was found to have raped every boy in his county (and let's just say he was so famous (or whatever) that he "get's away with it.")

On the one hand, his music is "magical". On the other hand, he's a "monster."

Would you have invited him into your home, let him "Teorema" you? (watch the Pasolini film...another guy murdered by a male whore)

I mean, could someone as staid as...Bruckner?...written music of such hallucinatory power? What creative door is opened by certain types of behaviour? Hey, I mean, if Szymanowski is my fav composer, and I want to write music like him...weeeellllllll... shouldn't I, or, wouldn't I wonder if there was a connection, and if I did the same things, could I write music like that? See where I'm going?

Hey, at least I didn't ask about jazz players!!! I'm watching the PBS jazz thing, and oh my, these guys are pond scum. Have any of our GMG's member's children (or themselves) become junkies because they thought, "It's good enough for Charlie Parker?"

Only each individual can answer for themselves where that line in the sand is.

I had my run in with this topic with the artist Sting. At some point I remember thinking, "He writes these beautiful songs, but he's such an asshole." As someone who also seeks to share with the world their talents, I have seriously questioned this artist/moral responsibility issue. I think I personally need a better answer than just, "I'm not interested in composer's private lives," for one reason, apparently they're NOT private. Also, with the composers, perhaps the balm of time smooths over what, at the time, might have been more serious.

I'm not the kind of guy who says to my "idol", "I love you, please sleep with my wife!" Haha.

Keep in mind, in the rock/pop world, the scummier you are, the more people sometimes seem to like you (and, yes, I know some people like rebels for rebellion's sake).

So...were boys raped so that we could enjoy our favorite music? And that's ok with most of us here? Collateral damage? What price talent?

I fear this whole topic runs deeper into our core being than we might all like to admit.

Charles Manson wrote this song "What's You're Game Girl," a really lovely piece of 60s pop.

I like to pretend that Satan himself wrote "You Light Up My Life" and was able to dupe sooo many people into thinking the song was about God. Laughing all the way to the bank.

After really getting into the blues, and really listening to the lyrics, after a while (years) my conscience pricked me, and I sold my whole collection.

I'll admit that half the reason I started this thread was just for the pure salacious gossip (yea, I've got issues too). But, there is an obvious flip side to that coin. Still, I want to know who's the first composer coke or herion junkie! Who's the first composer crackhead? btw- Merikanto...opium?

Don't you find discontinuity when you can praise the man's art, but cannot praise the man from who that art flowed?

So...where does their art "come from"? Who's in charge of dispensing talent? Where is this wellspring?

So, while we're at it, what is Bach's big "sin"? Or does he morally seem to be the appropriate conduit for such celestial God music?

btw- am I off topic yet?

This is wild stuff!!! Keep it coming.

[Catison]

The reason that it matters is that art, somehow, connects us with the artist.  Certain composers wear their heart on their sleeve more than others, but in most cases, when the music expresses pain, it is not the abstract idea of pain that is captured, but the composer's pain.  We are brought into their emotional world, made tangible by the expressive qualities of music.  And somehow this emotional mind meld rubs off on us.  As we travel the journey of a Mahler symphony, we don't come out at the other end the same, but changed in some small way.  To think that their emotional material transfered is somehow tainted by pedophilia or antisemitism or worse is frightening.  No one wants to be secretely corrupted, and I would say an aversion to a particular composer because they are both emotionally expressive and morally repulsive is justified.

[karlhenning]

ok, maybe I should have asked, "Which Russian composer was NOT a drunk?"...

[...]

We know about Mussorgsky...Sibelius...

Well, Sibelius was a Finn (or, a Swedish-descended resident of Finland).

[karlhenning]

Actually, the only Russian composer I can think of who was a serious alcoholic (to the point where it affected his work and life) was Musorgsky.

The question was a slur, of course  0:)

[karlhenning]

Is clean laundry still laundry, or just cloths?

That's an easy question, Paul!  If it's still in the basket, it's clean laundry. If it's in the closet or wardrobe, it's clothes 

[karlhenning]

They say Mozart was buttocks-obsessed and probably a coprophiliac. 

Who are they?

[karlhenning]

From a cursory reading of biographies that topic comes up frequently.

From a close reading of three biographies, neither topic came up at all.

Second time of asking (third, counting Todd's query): Who are they?

Perhaps you should read less scurrilous biography, Eric.

[karlhenning]

Apparently it went further than that...

Have you read the letters, Eric?

Have you considered that perhaps you want to believe that Mozart was coprophiliac and "buttocks-obsessed"?

[karlhenning]

http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=17722

BTW:

Aaron Retica writes about classical, jazz, and klezmer music from time to time.

[Keemun]

I had to look that up. 

Me too, and I wish I hadn't. 

[karlhenning]

Me too, and I wish I hadn't. 

Ah, I see you've met Eric!