Composers' Dirty Laundry

[Keemun]

Apparently so....

[karlhenning]

If it's in the closet or wardrobe, it's clothes 

Or, if you're wearing them, natch.

[Superhorn]

  I think it's wrong to be hostile to Wagner's operas merely because he happened to be anti-semitic, and it's often not realized that his anti-semitism was not even all that extreme. This is not to defend his deplorable attitudes, but you should be aware that he never advocated genocide against them,or any other group, and would no doubthave been sickened to see all the atrocities committed under Naziism if he could have seen them.
Wagner's main beef with Jews was his ridiculously irrational belief that they were intrinsically incapable of creating great art, particularly music, and he sneered at Meyerbeer and Mendelssohn, even though he actually admired some of the latter's music.
  But the old cliche goes, some of his best friends were Jews.
   I you go through the librettos of all his operas, you will not find a single anti-semitic statement made by any of his characters. There are no Jewish characters, no discussions of Jews or Judaism other than a reference to David and Goliath in the Bible in Die Meistersinger which is entirely without malice, and an indirect reference to the crucifixion in Parsifal.
  To interpret the Ring as a paean to Naziism is to completely misunderstand it. On the contrary,it shows the terrible destructive power of lust for power,and how Wotan and the gods are destroyed by it.
   

[karlhenning]

  I think it's wrong to be hostile to Wagner's operas merely because he happened to be anti-semitic [...]

Agreed.

To interpret the Ring as a paean to Naziism is to completely misunderstand it.

Agreed, again.

[karlhenning]

Yea, I'm bored.

Anyone?...the drunkest, opium addicted, boy loving, cousin marrying, tax cheating, non-recycling,...whatever...

The worst!

Do we know of any non-recycling composers?

[Opus106]

Do we know of any non-recycling composers?

A completely original composer? Nah.

[Dr. Dread]

Them composer is crazy... 

[karlhenning]

Them composer is crazy... 

But their linens is clean!

[Dr. Dread]

I find this whole thread to be vulgar and an attack on my delicate sensibilities.

[karlhenning]

I respect that.

You coprophiliac, buttock-obsessor, you.

[karlhenning]

A completely original composer? Nah.

No, but like, serialists must keep all their plastic separated by recycling grade, right?

[not edward]

No, but like, serialists must keep all their plastic separated by recycling grade, right?

Yes. 12 different recycling grades, and they must parcel out one box of each grade at any one time in the correct order.

Now I'm off to plan the recycling with a Babbitt square.

[owlice]

Oh, dear. Such an inviting topic to come across at this time in my life!

[Opus106]

No, but like, serialists must keep all their plastic separated by recycling grade, right?

I won't bother trying to understand what obviously appears to be some kind of in-joke. 

[karlhenning]

I won't bother trying to understand what obviously appears to be some kind of in-joke. 

I cannot answer a question if it is not phrased  0:)

[Joe Barron]

I was surprised to read that Carl Nielsen fathered several children out of wedlock while married to Anne. Not a high rating on the antisemitism-pedophile scale, but a juicy bit of gossip.

I must disagree though about antisemitism and the relation to Wagner's art. I don't think Wagner "happened" to be antisemitic, as he "happened" to be short or blond. It was central to his conception of himself. There's nothing "mere" about it. And I don't think his beef was "just" he thought Jewish people are incapable of creating geat art. Such rationalizations are usually covers for a deeper antipathy, a kind of intellectual superstructure, if you will. His problem was personal and visceral. The rest he just made up. And as for the defense that he did not call for the annihlation of the Jews, well, la-dee-freakin'-da. There are plenty of stages of despicability that stop short of annihliaton. (See Jakob Katz, Richard Wagner's Antisemitism, for an insightful discussion of Wagner's ambivalance toward violence and how it makes him more culpable as an antisemite.)

Antisemitism is no more irrelevant to Wagner's art than Margaret Mitchell's ugly racial poltics are irrelevant to Gone with the Wind. If it's there, it's there, and it can invalidate the entire enterprise.

I made my peace with Wagner the antisemite, however, because I found the argument that his operas are antisemtic tracts ultimately unconvincing. It relies on an underlying contradiction. Marc Weiner, in  "Richard Wagner and the Antisemtic Imagination" argues that Wagner did not explicitly make Beckmesser a Jew, for example, because he was afraid of backlash from his Jewish patrons and the great Jewish musicians he relied on for performances. On the other hand, Weiner also argues that audiences picked up on the antisemitic signals anyway, which were obvious to anyone who knew the code. But if the message was obvious, and intended to be obvious, why bother to paper it over with a few cosmetic disguises? It doesn't make sense. Jewish patrons and musicians would have been as sentitive to the message as anyone else, perhaps more so. If Wagner thought he could fool them by making Beckmesser a gentile, then he was really fooling himself.

[karlhenning]

I made my peace with Wagner the antisemite, however, because I found the argument that his operas are antisemtic tracts ultimately unconvincing.

Quoted for truth.

[Wilhelm Richard]

I was surprised to read that Carl Nielsen fathered several children out of wedlock while married to Anne. Not a high rating on the antisemitism-pedophile scale, but a juicy bit of gossip.

I must disagree though about antisemitism and the relation to Wagner's art. I don't think Wagner "happened" to be antisemitic, as he "happened" to be short or blond. It was central to his conception of himself. There's nothing "mere" about it. And I don't think his beef was "just" he thought Jewish people are incapable of creating geat art. Such rationalizations are usually covers for a deeper antipathy, a kind of intellectual superstructure, if you will. His problem was personal and visceral. The rest he just made up. And as for the defense that he did not call for the annihlation of the Jews, well, la-dee-freakin'-da. There are plenty of stages of despicability that stop short of annihliaton. (See Jakob Katz, Richard Wagner's Antisemitism, for an insightful discussion of Wagner's ambivalance toward violence and how it makes him more culpable as an antisemite.)

Antisemitism is no more irrelevant to Wagner's art than Margaret Mitchell's ugly racial poltics are irrelevant to Gone with the Wind. If it's there, it's there, and it can invalidate the entire enterprise.

I made my peace with Wagner the antisemite, however, because I found the argument that his operas are antisemtic tracts ultimately unconvincing. It relies on an underlying contradiction. Marc Weiner, in  "Richard Wagner and the Antisemtic Imagination" argues that Wagner did not explicitly make Beckmesser a Jew, for example, because he was afraid of backlash from his Jewish patrons and the great Jewish musicians he relied on for performances. On the other hand, Weiner also argues that audiences picked up on the antisemitic signals anyway, which were obvious to anyone who knew the code. But if the message was obvious, and intended to be obvious, why bother to paper it over with a few cosmetic disguises? It doesn't make sense. Jewish patrons and musicians would have been as sentitive to the message as anyone else, perhaps more so. If Wagner thought he could fool them by making Beckmesser a gentile, then he was really fooling himself.

This post seems to contradict itself.  You say that Wagner's antisemitism was just as important in the creation of his works as Mitchell's alleged racism was in creating one of the greatest novels of all time which you unfortunately seem to have taken upon yourself to declare invalid. But then you declare, rightly, that you find "the argument that his operas are antisemitic tracts ultimately unconvincing."  You claim, however, that Meistersinger contains "antisemitic signals" and "code"...Clarification please?

How political, or even racial, tracts (no records exist, to my knowledge, of Wagner physically harming a Jew) can be viewed as more "dirty" than pedophilia, adultery, and the rest is beyond me.

[c#minor]

People who are emotionally or mentally torn create the best art. Normal people are the exception.

And i heard (i can not remember from where) Tchaikovsky dedicated his 6th symphony to his nephew Bob, who killed himself after Uncle Peter came over to stay with him and his family. Tchaikovsky fell in love with Bob and had intimate relations. Bob was 10 and apparently hung himself around 2 weeks after Tchaikovsky left. Tchaikovsky kind of never got over it.

[karlhenning]

People who are emotionally or mentally torn create the best art.

Hog. Wash.