Make a Jazz Noise Here

[Mirror Image]

I just cued that back up for a repeat listen. Even some crudities in Charlie Rouses's tenor do not at all mar this.

No, not at all, which reminds me of that Thelonious Monk film Straight, No Chaser, in particular the part where Monk and Co. were rehearsing Ugly Beauty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In16H9J72HY

[Leon]

Anthony Braxton

What do you guys think about his work?

I have to say that after years of listening to the majority of his recorded output, I have a very mixed reaction - certianly not in line with the "genius" tag that is regularly applied to him by many in the (for lack of a better term) avant garde jazz camp.

Sometimes it sounds really good (much of 19 Standards, his duo date with Max Roach, the solo recording For Alto), but other times just like pretentious noodling, or worse.   

[bwv 1080]

Anthony Braxton

What do you guys think about his work?

I have to say that after years of listening to the majority of his recorded output, I have a very mixed reaction - certianly not in line with the "genius" tag that is regularly applied to him by many in the (for lack of a better term) avant garde jazz camp.

Sometimes it sounds really good (much of 19 Standards, his duo date with Max Roach, the solo recording For Alto), but other times just like pretentious noodling, or worse.   

never able to get into it, despite liking Art Ensemble of Chicago, Ornette's work in the 70s etc

[jowcol]

never able to get into it, despite liking Art Ensemble of Chicago, Ornette's work in the 70s etc

I have always admired Braxton's work more than I liked it.

Ahhh-- Art Ensemble of Chicago.  Great band, and I really enjoyed seeing them in the Mid 80s. 

[Leon]

The stuff of his (Braxton's) that I like the best, really like actually, is from the 70s, both from the early 70s with Chick Corea's Circle, but, even more, with Dave Holland thoughout the 70s (e.g., Conference of the Birds). 

Because of his non-jazz influences, the music he released under his own name is hard to classify as purely jazz, but I have to admit that he is an important saxophone player despite the many recordings that just sound empty of emotional content to me.

I do like many of the players that have been in his bands, Marilyn Crispell, for instance - and Richard Davis, Muhal Richard Abrams, and Steve McCall.

[karlhenning]

Thelonious Monk Quartet, Misterioso

[jowcol]

Thelonious Monk Quartet, Misterioso

I particularly like the "In Walked  Bud" on that disc.

[bwv 1080]

[Leon]

[asin]B0000261HF[/asin]

One of my favorites, with Charlie Haden, Egberto Gismonti & Jan Garbarek.  There is a companion disc, Magico that is equally great.

[jowcol]

I've been on a pretty ugly Indian classical binge the last few days, and digging out some of my jazz-Indian fusion albums.




Making Music with Zakir Hussain (tabla), John McLaughlin (acoustic), Hariprasad Chaurasia (bansuri, or flute), and Jan Garbarek (sax).  This is a later 80s ECM release-- I'd consider good, not great.  Some nice arrangements, more geared along the shorter numbers.  The interplay is strong, and you get to hear JMcL play some spare, attractive lines as well as some of his blistering work on the same track.  Garbarek is really strong in the mix,  and is a tad off-putting as a result.  And at no point does it really flirt with Raga structure, but enjoyable in its own right.




This album is totally killing me.   It's a very gifted Hindustani vocalist with a western group, including standard work with Jenny Scheinman on violin and Will Bernard on guitar, dobro and slide.   The rhythm section is a little bit smooth jazz for me, but the interplay of the vocals, violin, and guitars is fantastic, and the compositions really work at framing the raga-influenced leads.   I don't know how this fell out of my rotation, but it's back in with a vengeance, and I also am going to need to pick pick up some more of Scheinman's work.  This album goes against my typical bias for longer tracks and less production.  In this case, the layered sound really seems to bring more out of the vocal lines.

[Leon]

New from Bill Frisell:

[asin]B004DK4AFO[/asin]

Another interesting and rewarding recording from this iconoclastic guitarist.

[jowcol]

I was away for a bit .. addr. these ..

You've been missed. 

Actually not true .. not only is JM's playing better, so is the music & pieces! The western component is intact as well, it's not buried in endless miles .. of long-winded thin "indian tradition".

In either case, I believe it is a subjective assessment, is it not?   I'm guessing that you haven't devoted much time to study to the schools of Indian classical music, and that it doesn't do much for you.  That's not necessary a bad thing, life IS short, and there is a lot of music out there.  We each need to follow our muse-- but I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in someone's assessment of a musical tradition when they don't display a basic knowledge of structure and form of a given tradition.

Playing for longer doesn't mean "more developed" or "taking it further", 9 times out of 10 it's more long winded flailing ... 

Agreed that it doesn't always mean that, also the reverse isn't always true as well.

trying to even liken it to a Bach composition doesn't work.

Only in that it was a form of variations an a fairly simple theme.

(the beauty of early Shakti; this later Shakti you describe sounds long-winded with virtually all western traces erased)

Which means that most of this thread has been you describing how you don't like music  you haven't listened to.  Perhaps you need to heed the words of the most wise Reverend James, and walk the walk.

<snip>
are you not at all familiar with the recordings and music.
<snip>
. again, put the books down and start listening to the recorded legacy
<snip>
" Listen to the music more my friend, and stop reading ..
<snip>
Are you listening to the music though? I wonder .. I doubt it.
<snip>

FWIW-- I've gone through a lot of Shakti in the last few days (old and new).  Of the later stuff, the original double album is a bit long for me as well.  The opening Raga by Chaurasia only has a limited Alap, skips the Jor/Jhala completely, and has a decent Gat, but I can get equally good performances for cheap at a local Indian market.  The other long track on that album (Mukti-- yes, nearly an hour long) also doesn't satisfy me structurally.  The opening 20 minutes or so is fantastic, with some of the most subtle playing from JM,  but the last half is awfully loose for a Raga, and degenerates into a Wank fest with the percussion.   The Beliver was too western for my tastes.  Which leaves Saturday Night in Bombay as my fave. 

All sorts of "jazz" dabbles with indian, classical etc elements too of course, but often times it's done so subtly &-or sparingly that you won't detect it You won't get that with the noodling you’re referring to (especially the longer and longer it goes!), doesn't matter who it is .. and my point about an entire electric jazz album or two by those grps. is that there is a lot more there than 1 or 2 long-winded indian flair ups that take just as long (i.e. 35-40min). All sorts of "jazz" dabbles with indian, classical etc elements too of course, but often times it's done so subtly &-or sparingly that you won't detect it .. it's not that obvious as to hit you in the face like a freight train, and it isn't all consuming.

Give me a good standard jazz example of an Alap or Jor on an early Shakti album, or, "all sorts of jazz" .  You don't need to worry about which school (such as Druphad). 

Oh no more quotes!

Classic....  Sorry, but I could not resist quoting  it. 

Doesn’t mean much, sometimes musicians have to play the game etc .. I doubt Joe even spent a lot of time listening to other peoples music (JM for instance) much or in great depth to have a perspective of it. He was too busy & absorbed in creating & living his own music .. sure, with Mahavishnu there was lots of power, energy and reckless abandon, but there were many other sides too, in the playing and composition. The series of excellent albums they put out fully documents that in spades. Or even a great JM album like My Goal’s Beyond.. .. wonder if Joe ever heard it? There is some really beautiful stuff on it ... much better than the aimless noodling with the thin, rusty tones he often used on Miles albums.

For me, I like of lot of JM's albums-- I believe the most recent thread started with a positive review I had of one.  We still haven't talked about Extrapolation (maybe the best "pure" jazz album, IMO), the ultra-heavy Devotion, or his excellent After the Rain album which I like very much.  It was never my point of contention that his Miles work eclipsed his later work.  But you said the point couldn't be argued, and I'm not convinced on that point. 

I used the quote to help illustrate the dividing line between fact and opinion that sometimes gets misplaced in the heat of posting.   Particularly with certain parties who will remain nameless, but are tremendously entertaining nonetheless. 

[karlhenning]

Yeah, but, you know, if the quote is an inconvenient fact . . . .

[Leon]

I have a few CDs of Classical Indian Music, this is one is one I consider good:

Traditional Music of India

Ali Akbar Khan

[asin]B000000ZES[/asin]

I also have a couple of other anthologies but am not in front of my home computer to find the titles.

One thing, to judge this music by western standards completely misses the point.  I like much of what I've heard, and plan on expanding my collection beyond what I already have.  It is a very interesting and complex music, that even superficially can be very enjoyable to listen to for a newbie.

[Mirror Image]

[asin]B0000261HF[/asin]

One of my favorites, with Charlie Haden, Egberto Gismonti & Jan Garbarek.  There is a companion disc, Magico that is equally great.

Yes, I agree. That is a fantastic recording almost a chamber-like approach to jazz.

[Mirror Image]

Thelonious Monk Quartet, Misterioso

Johnny Griffin's tenure with Thelonious Monk is severely underrated I think. This is a remarkable disc in every way imaginable.

[jowcol]

I've heard plenty of indian music ... & I really dig those early Shakti releases ...

Non sequitur-- neither Zakir Hussain or his father, the highly respected Allarakha considered the early Shakti to be Indian music.  I could reproduce the quote again if you'd like.....


Hmmm.. the temptation.... must not hit the quote button... must follow the 12 steps program for quoteaholics anonymous.

they were really fresh & happening! And JM as a player has changed so much ... its like he's a totally different person/player now, and it's not to good effect at all, which is a shame. It's so stilted and flat now imo.

I agree with  this to some degree, but JM really doesn't want to go back to the Mahavishnu days anymore, and has been pretty adamant about it. 

I actually saw in concert a number of years ago the Remember Shakti thing ... it was a solid show, but that same fire and freshness wasn't really there as it was when it was a new thing. And they often droned on for too long .. a little restraint & economy would have been nice. It wasn't anything I wanted to "buy" after ...

Then I hope you didn't.  Life IS short.  We all need to seek out that which moves us. 

I said subtle - meaning internalized within a musicians own unique personal language ... it won't be obvious or contrived like that. There are traces of indian music in all kinds of "jazz".

GIven that, for the most part, Classical indian music didn't really impact the western "jazz" and serious music until the 50s, I don't really see any thread of causality, as opposed to a superficial resemblance.   I could dig up a nice Juicy James quote about how important it is to have developed the tools and chops needed to do justice to serious music.

  Don't jowcol!  Yes do!  I'm so conflicted! 

And "Alop" and "Jor"; are more or less fancy words to describe musical elements, events and happenings that you can find in non indian music to be sure  .. Alop .. opening section ..  It is unmetered, improvised and unaccompanied, over a drone .. starts slow;  vocalese... not entirely free however, systematic introduction of notes etc. ... when steady pulse is introduced; called a jor ..... when rhythmic elements override the melodic jhar etc

It's appreciated that you took the time to look up the definitions, but have you pointed out examples? And are they stitched together in a way that a raga is formally developed?  There are a lot of superficial resemblances between Persian and Indian classical, but how they are put togethehr is quite different.

You love quotes, we all know  .. but one's such as the JZ don't mean much, and they don't divide fact & opinion. Often ... (the ones you post), inflate and you put more weight on them than what they really are.

Or love sharing them with the right people... .

Actually, the goal behind the quotes, as I've stated before, is to realize how many shadings and degrees of nuance are in some of these issues, and to show that even the "experts" don't agree, which in turn implies that much what some could call is fact is indeed opinion.

This goes back to a point i was trying to make earlier, that it's better to be better listened than read. I can read loads of glowing and inflated pronouncements about music from various sources, but often it doesn't meet those expectations or descriptions, no matter how hard the documentation tries. The music itself reveals so much more and is the best source of information. Not all the hype around it in written words, or isolated quotes used as some cover all summation.

The basic idea is indeed valid, but it seems to presume that everyone will react, when listening, the same way. Instead, it is incredibly subjective.  I'm afraid that by listening to Heavy Weather, Mr. Gone, Live in Tokyo, and Tail Spinnin over the last few weeks, I haven't "seen the light".  And I'm equally sure that if you were to listen to my library of Ragas, or, worse yet, the 80+ live Miles boots I have, you won't have a dramatic conversion either.   And I don't expect you to.


I agree that words suck at capturing the experience music provides, but they are all we have if we try to communicate with others.  Realizing how much of our reaction is subjective helps people constructively navigate the music and styles they like.  Yes, sometimes somebody describes music I think I'll love, and I'm really disappointed when I hear it.  But I'm not yet at the stage where I don't want to expand my range of stuff I listen to.

And you've dodged a point I made too, that in reality... Joe most likely wasn't that involved or familiar with JM's legacy or playing as a listener; in that isolated & nabbed quote he was merely paying some lip service .. about an album he was involved with.

Actually, being a big fan of the 6 Blind Men and the Elephant proverb, I'm in agreement with this point as well.  But this says the same about anything that I (or you, or <fill in the blank>) posts as well.  I could easily argue both sides of the same topic quoting Miles-- he was as contradictory as they come.  But, accepting this means that we need to accept both the uncertainty and subjectivity in all of our assessments, does it not? 

[jowcol]

Joe's Symphony ..

"It is all improvisation," he once said of his composing style.
"All my tunes are improvisations. I'm a formal improviser. Even my symphony I improvised." - Josef Zawinul



01 Beginning
02 Mountain Waters
03 Empire
04 Introduction
05 Gypsy
06 Voice of the Danube
07 Unknown Soldier
08 Introduction
09 Sultan
10 Finale

Joe Zawinul keyboards, vocals
Caspar Richter  conductor
Amit Chatterjee guitar, vocals
Burhan Öçal percussion, vocals
Arto Tuncboyaciyan percussion, vocals
Walter Grassman drums
Czech State Philharmonic Orchestra

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stories_of_the_Danube

No intelligent jazz musician in his right mind would ever say that their improvisations are comparable to a classical masterwork, that level of craftsmenship and perfection.

A few jazz musicians have tried to crossover into the realm of serious writing, though much of it isn't that good either...they really can't really compose that kind of music ... and it's comes off like an extended album track or something ... just blocks and a bit clumsy, and they don't orchestrate too well, or with much imagination/skill...so doomed ventures.

True...any symphony, orchestral work, ballet...

Or a requiem, or any choral work, or any concerto, or any string quartet or chamber work, or any sonata, or any fugue etc etc ETC

[jowcol]

The music is there, it totally exists. It's not a subjective thing ... the fact that 'ears' can't hear it are another matter entirely.

How come Stravinsky went from detesting Beethoven in the 20's to saying he was "infinitely precious" in the 50s?  Even the same person's ears change over time-- because the music didn't.   A lot of how music is perceived is shaped by non-acoustic expectations, prejudices etc. 

[karlhenning]

How come Stravinsky went from detesting Beethoven in the 20's to saying he was "infinitely precious" in the 50s?  Even the same person's ears change over time-- because the music didn't.   A lot of how music is perceived is shaped by non-acoustic expectations, prejudices etc.

QFT