Make a Jazz Noise Here

[Grazioso]

Arguing with James is futile. It's pointless. It goes nowhere. He's right and we're all wrong. The end.

http://www.youtube.com/v/aCbfMkh940Q

[Mirror Image]

http://www.youtube.com/v/aCbfMkh940Q

[bhodges]

Of course some of this EMC stuff can get too misty and blurry but in general there's some good guys  making some worthwhile sound.  Enrico rava, Bobo Stinson, Jan Gararek, Tomasz Stanko, Terje Rypdal, among others, including the above, all own some real estate in my iTunes Library.

I love ECM's jazz recordings - make no mistake - and the cover art for most is exceptional. But I do joke now and then that the name stands for "Extremely Calm Music." 

--Bruce

[karlhenning]

. . . But I do joke now and then that the name stands for "Extremely Calm Music." 

Tu as raison, Bruce!

[Grazioso]

I love ECM's jazz recordings - make no mistake - and the cover art for most is exceptional. But I do joke now and then that the name stands for "Extremely Calm Music." 

--Bruce

Don't clap--you'll wake the musicians  Seriously, they have some major talent on that label.

[bhodges]

I have many of Jan Garbarek's recordings - some are really exceptional, e.g., Dis, Arbour Zena and All Those Born with Wings - plus many by others who recorded with him, and/or about the same time, e.g., Ralph Towner and Keith Jarrett. It's quite true: many outstanding artists, with quite a body of work.

--Bruce

[Grazioso]

Even the Jazz Messengers got in on the film soundtrack opportunities:

[escher]

That ECM thing did absolutely nothing for me, I haven't heard much coming out on that label that really has interested me. And I think "jazz" was so much better before boring old bop hit the scene .. bop had it's moments but it got redundant, formulaic, cliche and well, routinely mechanical quite fast .. after bop petered out (thankfully), the music opened up more, became more alive and interesting again in the late 60s & 70s.

To me the fact that you consider the seventies a great decade of jazz explains a lot of your low consideration of jazz, seriously. To me is one of the weakest decades that can't compare at all with the fifties and the sixties.

[Grazioso]

boring old bop

http://www.youtube.com/v/AMuItUv9xZc

[escher]

But a close second behind Evidence is Jackie-ing

http://www.youtube.com/v/GK9_WDV2RuE

You can clearly hear the difference in how Coltrane blows the changes of Evidence which are just "Rhythm changes" but Rouse makes many more references to the theme of the song in his solo .  Of course, Monk, in his accompanying references the elements of the song in a fractured fashion.  And then Thad Jones basically plays over the changes but with  subtle references to the theme.

Monk's songs were great vehicles for solos, and that is no small achievement.

Evidence is one of my favorite too, the rhythm is fantastic. My favorite version is that on Thelonious in action, maybe because there is an amazing Roy Haynes. I don't know why but Monk has ever had weak drummers, Haynes is the exception (though it seems that Monk was not satisfied by him, for what i've read).

If i have to say some other piece, though i really like his ballads like dear ruby or pannonica i have a soft spot for his most cerebral side: evidence, four in one, trinkle tinkle, humph, rhythm-a-ning, light blue, criss cross and similar pieces

[escher]

Well yea Parker in his little musical zone .. a good player who created countless clones & imitators.

The 70s produced some of the most greatest stuff. Miles, Mahavishnu, Weather Report, Lifetime, RTF, Headhunters etc.

Miles in the seventies is absolutely not interesting as the previous period. There is some good stuff (i like for example get up with it with some his last really creative experiments, like rated x that predate drum'n' bass or He loved him madly), but a lot of pieces are endless improvisations over simple vamps (agharta, pangaea). Talking about compositions after Sactuary on bitches brew (the last gem written for the group by shorter) his weakest period for sure.
Mahavishnu: if we consider the history of jazz is a secondary group. I do love Mclaughlin as a guitarist, but their album are full of empty demonstrations of virtuosity (especially cobham who overplays a lot). Same for Lifetime: Holdsworth is a great guitarist with an original approach and some good piece like protocosmos, but their albums sound cold. The same for Return to forever (the first two albums are quite good, but absolutely nothing of exceptional). The most famous album of headhunters is not even jazz, is just funk and i think that there are more inspired albums in the genre. Weather report are a more important group though i don't like them too much, but i can't put their albums on the same level of the best jazz.

I think that if we consider single years like 1959, 1964, 1961 there is more good stuff and creativity that in the entire decade of the seventies

[Mirror Image]

Headhunters is a big favorite album of mine (still today), and so is Thrust.

http://www.youtube.com/v/m0c38Wtdvz0

This is just awful. James, you don't know a damn thing about jazz.

[Andante]

Good to see you again MI been a long time for me 

[Mirror Image]

Good to see you again MI been a long time for me 

Hey Andante, I hope everything has been well with you. I've been out-of-touch with many members from my TalkClassical days. Good to see you here.

[escher]

Some '70s "'lectric" Herbie that I like

tell me a bedtime story for me is his best composition

[Grazioso]

This is just awful. James, you don't know a damn thing about jazz.

De gustibus, but man, a lot of fusion and jazz funk sounds very dated and time-bound. You expect to hear that during a car chase in a 70's cop movie, or in the background of an episode of

http://www.youtube.com/v/zpBhrjfetkk

For some good Herbie, try

http://www.youtube.com/v/hwmRQ0PBtXU

[escher]

I don't have a problem with Headhunters or the other funk influenced projects Herbie Hancock did.  But, after that period he went back to the acoustic sound he had perfected with Miles and other bands.  Now he is in a more pop influenced phase, but still doing acoustic high quality jazz.

Many of the guys who got into fusion came back to playing acoustic post-bop, because that is a more challenging style.  Chick Corea has done the same thing, except for nostalgia tours, like with RTF, and with John McLaughlin (5 Peace Band) - he's had his acoustic band for a while and recently gone on tour with a trio with Christian McBride and Brian Blade which is doing some monster playing.

Keith Jarrett dropped out of the fusion thing early on and has played with the same trio for over twenty years. 

Wayne Shorter's excursion with Weather Report (which began fairly interesting - free style jazz - but which degenerated into Zawinul's thing, which isn't really so bad but represented a retreat for most of those guys) ended with him making some of the worst albums in his catalog - but then he also returned to acoustic post bop - and is doing some of his best playing ever.

i have to made a distinction here, Shorter's High life, though the horrible Marcus Miller plastic production is a GREAT album. I can't think of any other albums in the eighties or in the nineties with a so high level of writing.

[escher]

I found Atlantis and Phatom Navigator depressing and never even heard High LIfe, but I am listening to it now on Spotify.  After the desert of the '80s CDs I didn't get back into WS until Alegria - which was a return to an acoustic sound. 

You're right the writing on HL is good, but not nearly as good, IMO, as his great stuff from berfore Weather Report. 

I disagree, it's as good as his better known albums of the sixties (speak no evil, juju, night dreamer....):
On the Milky Way Express, Midnight in Carlotta's Hair, the great reworking of Children of the night that for me is even better than the original, At the fair... but really, there's no a weak piece on it for me. I think it's the album that i've listened the most to of him. Very, very underrated album.
Talking of Atlantis, there's some good piece even on it 

And, having said that, these songs would be so much better if not done in this electric style and instead done with a acoustic group, as he has done with some of the songs from Atlantis continuing to be in his set list until pretty recently.

WS was wasted in this fusion style - he is such a monster player and composer that the eletronic style proved too much of a distraction and didn't swing, to my ears (his swing is a unique strength that gets lost in the electric pad) and his sound is not placed in the best environment.  The only album from this period that I actually like is Native Dancer, the one with Milton Nascimento - which is good because of the Brazilain songs and singing of MN, with Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter providing great accompaniment.

yeah, even on  high life the rhyhtm section is horrible. I don't like the bass and the drums are even worse, and there's no trace of swing. But i don't know if it's a matter of electric/electronic style. I think that as great as he is a musician and composer, he has real horrible tastes for sounds, he's certainly no Ravel under this aspect. 
And he let produce his music from the wrong persons (Marcus Miller, i hate you).

By the way, have you listened to his classical experiment, terra incognita? I've listened to it only once, but it's been a bit a disappointment to me.

[Mirror Image]

For some good Herbie, try

http://www.youtube.com/v/hwmRQ0PBtXU

Oh yes, I own all of Herbie's early Blue Note albums: Takin' Off, Empryean Isles, Maiden Voyage, and Speak Like A Child.

[Grazioso]

I disagree, it's as good as his better known albums of the sixties (speak no evil, juju, night dreamer....):

Don't forget Shorter's major contributions to the Jazz Messengers, too: he wrote a bunch of their tunes and was the sax player for much of their heyday. Thankfully, that work is very well documented with a bunch of live and studio albums of the band.