When Did Modernism Begin?

[Dana]

This is what Sloterdijk says about it (he talks about "new music", I think he means serial music then) and I think he's right.

      Maybe that's how he meant it, but people have been talking about new music, or the Music of the Future from Richard Strauss, to Liszt, to Wagner, even to Berlioz. I think that Brett nailed it - that modernism is music that pushes music forward as much for its own beauty, as much as to break new ground (although I do think that he's wrong to exclude Mozart from that group). Which leads us back to Greg's apparent paradox...

Then that would mean Modernism started at multiple points in time...

      With that said, most people would look at you as though you had just sprouted an extra arm out of your chest if you tried to call Wagner modern, so I think that there's also an element of perception. After all, no one talked about Beethoven's 's music as being "modernistic" in his day (to my knowledge). His was simply extraordinary music. In his own lifetime, Strauss went from being on the very cutting edge of music, thanks to Salome, to being an also-ran. Could his compositional style possibly have changed? Or maybe it's that the style of the day changed, and his didn't.

[jochanaan]

     Maybe that's how he meant it, but people have been talking about new music, or the Music of the Future from Richard Strauss, to Liszt, to Wagner, even to Berlioz. I think that Brett nailed it - that modernism is music that pushes music forward as much for its own beauty, as much as to break new ground (although I do think that he's wrong to exclude Mozart from that group)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ars_Nova

     With that said, most people would look at you as though you had just sprouted an extra arm out of your chest if you tried to call Wagner modern, so I think that there's also an element of perception.

Not "modern," just "The Music of the Future." (But that label has been affixed to Johannes Brahms music too. )

After all, no one talked about Beethoven's 's music as being "modernistic" in his day (to my knowledge).

No, they just said "Beethoven is now ripe for the madhouse."

In his own lifetime, Strauss went from being on the very cutting edge of music, thanks to Salome, to being an also-ran. Could his compositional style possibly have changed? Or maybe it's that the style of the day changed, and his didn't.

That's a case of three steps forward, two steps back.  Other composers pushed music three steps forward while R. Strauss took two steps back.