Vivaldi's vocal music

[Elgarian]

$6 per CD.

Ah. I thought there must have been some essential info missing!

[Antoine Marchand]

That was one of the best purchases I made in the last year. It was something of a revelation, in fact. I remember at the time Que questioned the combination of Vivaldi and the British choral tradition as manifested through King's Consort on Hyperion; and there's no doubt that listening to these recordings is not quite the same kind of experience as listening, say, to those often wild, windswept performances one hears on the Naive sets. But (perhaps because of my inexperience) I don't share Que's reservations. Obviously I'm speaking in general terms, but I feel that the Naive wildness is replaced by a lightness of touch, a delicacy, that I find entirely delightful. Vivaldi is dancing through the air instead of forcing his way through it with a battering ram. I enjoy both approaches, but if I had to give all my Vivaldi away, it's the Hyperion set that I'd be most reluctant to part with.

I understand your point, Elgarian. During the last years, I have purchased the complete Vivaldi collection on Naïve, both instrumental and vocal, and I also have the complete sacred music by King and his ensemble. But I have constantly had a love-hate relationship with that massive and bright sound, always extremely alert and muscular on Naïve (Spinosi is a notorious case). Sometimes I would love certain pauses, hesitations, a sound less robust; in short, less virtuosism and more sensibility... 

[Elgarian]

But I have constantly had a love-hate relationship with that massive and bright sound, always extremely alert and muscular on Naïve (Spinosi is a notorious case). Sometimes I would love certain pauses, hesitations, a sound less robust; in short, less virtuosism and more sensibility... 

It's nice to be understood! Yes, there are times when those Naive recordings are so exciting that it makes me want to punch the air with exhilaration; and there are other times when I wince and reach for the off switch. We're fortunate to have the best of both worlds.

[Coopmv]

It's nice to be understood! Yes, there are times when those Naive recordings are so exciting that it makes me want to punch the air with exhilaration; and there are other times when I wince and reach for the off switch. We're fortunate to have the best of both worlds.

I only care for authentic but not mood-of-the-moment performance ...

[Elgarian]

I only care for authentic but not mood-of-the-moment performance ...

It's my mood I was talking about, Coop - not the mood of the performance.

There is no perfect 'authentic ideal', is there? (And even if there were, we'd never know for sure that we were recognising it correctly.)

[The new erato]

It's my mood I was talking about, Coop - not the mood of the performance.

There is no perfect 'authentic ideal', is there? (And even if there were, we'd never know for sure that we were recognising it correctly.)

Indeed. But it's nice to have alternate interpretations of authenticity.  Sometimes I like this, sometimes that; and at times neither. And in addition it enables us to go on buying new versions....

[Elgarian]

But it's nice to have alternate interpretations of authenticity.

Exactly - in fact essential, I'd say, since there can be no one true path to authenticity. The best we can do is explore the various interesting paths that seem to lead towards it. And, as you say, erato, it feeds the shopping urge ....

[Coopmv]

It's my mood I was talking about, Coop - not the mood of the performance.

There is no perfect 'authentic ideal', is there? (And even if there were, we'd never know for sure that we were recognising it correctly.)

And I was referring to some ensemble might have gone wild in its quest to be different ...

[The new erato]

And I was referring to some ensemble might have gone wild in its quest to be different ...

I actually do agree that the Naive series ocassionally goes over the top and courts "sensationalism" and what seems like doubtful practises, probably to make the series more !appealing". Read eg this on Tito Manlio:

http://www.newolde.com/vivaldi_operas.htm

"This is a disappointing, HUP performance that I would characterize as "Spinosi Lite", as his weird performance practices spread across Europe like the Bird Flu. There are savage attacks at every opportunity, especially in fast arias, long crescendos that were unknown when this opera was composed, and non-historically ornamented B sections with sustained notes in lieu of the "divisions". "

or on  La Verità in Cimento:

"Despite a first rate cast, Spinosi has made a complete hash of this opera, producing a nearly unbearable recording. The non-HIP strumming guitar continuo and vocalists repeatedly attack notes, and virtually every phrase includes an extreme crescendo or diminuendo -- the aural equivalent of a chimp spattering balloons of paint on a canvas."

[Coopmv]

I actually do agree that the Naive series ocassionally goes over the top and courts "sensationalism" and what seems like doubtful practises, probably to make the series more !appealing". Read eg this on Tito Manlio:

http://www.newolde.com/vivaldi_operas.htm

"This is a disappointing, HUP performance that I would characterize as "Spinosi Lite", as his weird performance practices spread across Europe like the Bird Flu. There are savage attacks at every opportunity, especially in fast arias, long crescendos that were unknown when this opera was composed, and non-historically ornamented B sections with sustained notes in lieu of the "divisions". "

or on  La Verità in Cimento:

"Despite a first rate cast, Spinosi has made a complete hash of this opera, producing a nearly unbearable recording. The non-HIP strumming guitar continuo and vocalists repeatedly attack notes, and virtually every phrase includes an extreme crescendo or diminuendo -- the aural equivalent of a chimp spattering balloons of paint on a canvas."

Erato,

Such performance practice can rival the American equivalent of New Math, which was appealing in the 60's but the American kids have been suffering from this snake oil for the last 30 years ...

[DarkAngel]

You guys are looking for bread in the dairy department 

I think the style of performance heard on Naive opera series is very appropriate. The age of Italian baroque opera is about spectacle and dazzling de capo arias strung together, every performance was an opportunity for singer to dazzle audience with new and more creative ornamentation.........almost impossible today for any singer to actually even sing these notes.

Do not expect the sweet vibrato laden bel canto style of later singers, I enjoy Naive series very much and think young Italian conductors like Biondi, Spinozi, Alessandrini, Savall, Dantone, De Marchi etc know exactly what they are doing and have researched the subject very thoroughly both orchestral style and singing practice............

[Elgarian]

I enjoy Naive series very much and think young Italian conductors like Biondi, Spinozi, Alessandrini, Savall, Dantone, De Marchi etc know exactly what they are doing and have researched the subject very thoroughly both orchestral style and singing practice............

I don't think anyone's seriously disagreeing with that, DA - except to the extent that despite all the research conceivable, some uncertainty must remain about how closely the end result resembles what we might have actually heard in Vivaldi's day, mustn't it? After all, some uncertainty remains about the interpretation, in actual performance, of any score. And perhaps on some occasions the practitioners do better than others.

For my own part, I'm incapable of passing such judgements. But whether or not the King's Consort Vivaldi interpretations are strictly authentic, to my ears they seem coherent, self-consistent, and often very moving, and I find myself choosing to listen to them more often than the Naive sets. I expect it's my inner Vivaldian wimpishness coming out.

[The new erato]

I don't think anyone's seriously disagreeing with that, DA - except to the extent that despite all the research conceivable, some uncertainty must remain about how closely the end result resembles what we might have actually heard in Vivaldi's day, mustn't it?

Precisely. Remember, we're talking HIP here - as opposed to what we like. Seems to me that if a recording is marketed as HIP, there must be some substance behind the claim - despite the unavoidable uncertainities.

[KevinP]

I love the King series, but I feel I need to say that I have an odd relationship with King's recordings. If his is the first version I hear, I'm absolutely spoiled. Anything else sounds wrong, and I say this as someone who loves doing comparative listenings. However, whenever he tackles a piece I already know, I'm utterly unconvinced and left cold.

Weird, huh?

Since he recorded a lot of works that aren't well known, including the  majority of the series in question, there's a lot to love.

[Antoine Marchand]

think the style of performance heard on Naive opera series is very appropriate. The age of Italian baroque opera is about spectacle and dazzling de capo arias strung together, every performance was an opportunity for singer to dazzle audience with new and more creative ornamentation.........almost impossible today for any singer to actually even sing these notes.

Well, DA, many people think that some performances on Naive are historically inaccurate. The opinions quoted by Erato are a clear demonstration. Personally I think, for instance, that some tempi used by Spinosi would be simply unimaginable to people of the XVIIIth century.

Do not expect the sweet vibrato laden bel canto style of later singers, I enjoy Naive series very much and think young Italian conductors like Biondi, Spinozi, Alessandrini, Savall, Dantone, De Marchi etc know exactly what they are doing and have researched the subject very thoroughly both orchestral style and singing practice............

Certainly I don't wish more vibrato at all, but those directors referred by you are rather different among them. For instance, Jordi Savall is Spaniard (or more properly Catalan) and he has been in the baroque scene from the late sixties. And Spinosi is by far wilder (and historically inaccurate, I would say) than any of the other directors mentioned by you.

[DarkAngel]

Naive is just representative of baroque opera performance style in general now........
rythms are faster and singers more daring and skilled in difficult ornamentation techniques, more and more unknown works are now being produced, we have now have young singers that specialize in baroque and don't sing Puccini one week and Vivaldi  next week......

The Handel opera boxset for Virgin is a nice time capsule following Alan Curtis style evolution over a long period of time. I remember commenting on those works the newest ones like Radamisto were fresh alive and sparkled with energy......the oldest ones were strangely flat and a bit stale by comparison, I submit this is his evolution to the newer performance style which Naive is the vanguard of but is becoming common accepted baroque opera practice

Religious works are a different area and we should expect them to be more reserved and reverential style by comparison to secular baroque opera which are pure spectacle and entertainment

[Elgarian]

Precisely. Remember, we're talking HIP here - as opposed to what we like. Seems to me that if a recording is marketed as HIP, there must be some substance behind the claim - despite the unavoidable uncertainities.

Yep - I'd be the first to agree that's an important distinction. But I suppose what's causing the problem here is that HIP recordings cover quite a broad spectrum (if we're to judge by the results available to us).

[Coopmv]

Yep - I'd be the first to agree that's an important distinction. But I suppose what's causing the problem here is that HIP recordings cover quite a broad spectrum (if we're to judge by the results available to us).

Personally, I much prefer sampling a few HIP recordings of the same work and do a fair amount of A-B comparisons to determine how they stack up against each other.  Preferably, I would like to have more than three versions to do some meaningful comparisions.  The majority (in terms of similarity in styles) wins, clear and simple.

[Coopmv]

Elgarian,

I just ordered this set at an American e-tailer that has (surprisingly) somewhat better price than Presto Classic.  I may even have a chance to receive the set before Christmas ...

[Elgarian]

I just ordered this set at an American e-tailer that has (surprisingly) somewhat better price than Presto Classic.  I may even have a chance to receive the set before Christmas ...

I wish you much joy of it. I can't seriously believe you'll have any regrets about this purchase. Great music-making remains great music-making, when all the talking stops.