What is, or was, "Late Tonality?"

[schweitzeralan]

Some time ago I read an article that addressed the music of several composers comsing during the first two decades of the 20th century.  Scriabin, Faure plus others were included.and considered  "Late Tonality" composers. In one of the threads I brought up the subject of Modernism.  I thought that with Modernist musical "language," tonality was abandoned; yet many compositions were not necessarily "atonal."  Many works of course were, in particular those composers who were influenced by the Viennese School.  

I don't have sustained academic music theory knowledge; yet I can only assume that  late tonality is precisely that: tonality with dissonances which  "color" or involve certain musical dimensions to a piece. I've always believed that this late tonality was somehow exemplary of Pre-Modernism, but I could be mistaken, according to several erstwhile postings on the Modernist thread..

Composers like Schoenberg, Webern, Berg,the "Viennese School," were atonal.  Bi tonality (Bartok, Brian, plus many American composers as well as European, were exploring bi tonality, pluritonality (Sp.) or works that "left" the modal standards reminiscent of Rachmaninoff, or of Mahler, Marx, Schmitt, Ravel, Martinu; composers, like "Les Six, plus other early 20th composers who were somehow "Late Tonalists."  Is there anyone who can further define 'late tonality?" Excepting the Viennese group, when did "late tonality" disappear?

[bwv 1080]

there are not hard distinctions between them.  I find thinking about music in terms of "tonal", "atonal", "polytonal" etc to be entirely useless categorizations.  Just focus on the particular composer or school - I do not think anyone can get a grasp of the concepts approaching them from the top down.

[DavidW]

There is just way too much variety in modern classical to pin down even one or two trends.  Even in atonal music there are several approaches.  Tonal music is still written.  And that's just the start of it.  Tonality is not the only experiment.  Rhythm, timbre, instruments themselves, melody all have been played with, experimented on.  Many listen to a modern work and think "yuck atonal!" when it's actually dissonant or polytonal or arhythmic, or not melodic.

[Dana]

      (If I could generalize greatly for a moment...) I think that "late tonality" refers to composers who, while they did not follow the school of thought of Schoenberg et al, did not continue writing in the traditional tonic-predominant-dominant-tonic tonal form. Whereas the Second Viennese School discarded tonality entirely, new tonalists still tend to recognize "do," or scale degree one, as a dominant pitch. Hindemith is a great example. He turned away from tonic-dominant harmony in favor of a new understanding of music; his music doesn't go tonic-predominant-dominant-tonic, but rather consonance-dissonance-consonance. The beauty of this theory is that while it disregards most of the traditional harmonic rules, it still maintains the basic principles of tonality - that we start out on "do," we move away from it, and then eventually we return to it.

That's one thought, anyways.

[schweitzeralan]

      (If I could generalize greatly for a moment...) I think that "late tonality" refers to composers who, while they did not follow the school of thought of Schoenberg et al, did not continue writing in the traditional tonic-predominant-dominant-tonic tonal form. Whereas the Second Viennese School discarded tonality entirely, new tonalists still tend to recognize "do," or scale degree one, as a dominant pitch. Hindemith is a great example. He turned away from tonic-dominant harmony in favor of a new understanding of music; his music doesn't go tonic-predominant-dominant-tonic, but rather consonance-dissonance-consonance. The beauty of this theory is that while it disregards most of the traditional harmonic rules, it still maintains the basic principles of tonality - that we start out on "do," we move away from it, and then eventually we return to it.

That's one thought, anyways.

Quite informative.

[jochanaan]

...Excepting the Viennese group, when did "late tonality" disappear?

It didn't, and it hasn't, and it probably won't.

Perhaps "Expanded Tonality" would be a better name for the late-Romantic and Modernist composers who didn't completely abandon tonality, or who used it in unique ways.  One more recent example is Alan Hovhaness, whose music always has a strong tonal center but who favored Eastern and other modes to Western tonal rules and combined them in his own distinctive style.

[greg]

I also prefer the term "expanded tonality." "Late tonality" just sounds retarded.

[schweitzeralan]

I also prefer the term "expanded tonality." "Late tonality" just sounds retarded.

Just wanted to inform that The term was brought up in an article on Scriabin; the term "late tonality" was used by a critic contemporary to Scriabin and was used sometime during the first decade of the last century. To be sure tonality did change during the third and fourth decades, and music somehow was never the same.  Not that it changed for the worst.  Many "isms" followed suite ( as it did in the visual arts and in poetry). I personally appreciate almost all of 20th century music, at least up to the 1960's (Rautavaara excepted).  I simply like those works the critic labled as "late tonalists;" viz, Scriabin, Marx, Bloch, Sibelius (( and his Sibelianists)); Suk, Gliere, Bax, VW, the impressionists, (Delius, Debussy et. al.); Rachmaninoff, plus so many early 20th century composers.  Much music written at this time was considered by some critics and commentators as "late tonal" expressions.  Just a thought.

[jochanaan]

Just wanted to inform that The term was brought up in an article on Scriabin; the term "late tonality" was used by a critic contemporary to Scriabin and was used sometime during the first decade of the last century. To be sure tonality did change during the third and fourth decades, and music somehow was never the same.  Not that it changed for the worst.  Many "isms" followed suite ( as it did in the visual arts and in poetry). I personally appreciate almost all of 20th century music, at least up to the 1960's (Rautavaara excepted).  I simply like those works the critic labled as "late tonalists;" viz, Scriabin, Marx, Bloch, Sibelius (( and his Sibelianists)); Suk, Gliere, Bax, VW, the impressionists, (Delius, Debussy et. al.); Rachmaninoff, plus so many early 20th century composers.  Much music written at this time was considered by some critics and commentators as "late tonal" expressions.  Just a thought.

Many musicians and music critics at that time thought tonality was on its way out.  A hundred years' passage has proven them wrong.

[eyeresist]

Many musicians and music critics at that time thought tonality was on its way out.  A hundred years' passage has proven them wrong.

Yes. "Late Tonality" sounds like an coinage of ideological Modernists to imply that "Tonality" was merely a phase beyond which serious music had advanced. So if you're writing from a Modernist view it might be an appropriate expression, but from a broader perspective it's not very useful.