Obama's Townhall in Portsmouth, New Hampshire

[Bulldog]

I happened to watch all of Obama's Townhall this morning in Portsmouth.  Being a registered Independent, I'm usually very skeptical of whatever the Democrats or Republicans are pushing at any point in time.  However, I thought Obama was superb today in promoting his ideas for health care/insurance reform.  He's sold me; my wife was already in his corner.  What are your thoughts?

[Gurn Blanston]

I happened to watch all of Obama's Townhall this morning in Portsmouth.  Being a registered Independent, I'm usually very skeptical of whatever the Democrats or Republicans are pushing at any point in time.  However, I thought Obama was superb today in promoting his ideas for health care/insurance reform.  He's sold me; my wife was already in his corner.  What are your thoughts?

I am very much in favor of health care reform. However, so much misinformation is being put out about this plan that you don't know what to believe. I don't want socialized medicine, or loss of independence over my own choices. Not even if that's what it takes to get something in place. Not that I necessarily believe that's what it is coming to, just sayin'...



----------------
Listening to:
The Cummings String Trio - Bia 105 Op 3 Trio in Eb for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro con brio

[secondwind]

I think you have to look at the financial interests of the groups that are fighting this plan so hard.  Any health care reform that actually succeeds in reducing costs also reduces their paychecks and profit margins.  I think that a lot of the misinformation and scare tactics are motivated by greed on the part of the vested interests.  I'm behind the plan.  It may not be perfect and it will probably need some tinkering and fine-tuning as time goes by, but I think it is a reasonable, good faith effort to do something that really needs to be done.

[MishaK]

Wow! Three intelligent comments on health care reform in a row! I must be dreaming....

Seriously, I'm glad not all is lost. I hope that the obvious ridiculousness of the crazies who populate the senators' and congressmen and women's 'town hall' meetings these days will end up turning the populace against them and toward Obama's healthcare plan. I volunteered for Obama to get out the vote, and worked as an election monitor and voter rights advisor in Indiana during the election and the run up to it. This and curbing greenhouse emissions/fostering green technologies were the two issues I hoped would finally get fixed. You guys give me hope again.

[Gurn Blanston]

Wow! Three intelligent comments on health care reform in a row! I must be dreaming....

Seriously, I'm glad not all is lost. I hope that the obvious ridiculousness of the crazies who populate the senators' and congressmen and women's 'town hall' meetings these days will end up turning the populace against them and toward Obama's healthcare plan. I volunteered for Obama to get out the vote, and worked as an election monitor and voter rights advisor in Indiana during the election and the run up to it. This and curbing greenhouse emissions/fostering green technologies were the two issues I hoped would finally get fixed. You guys give me hope again.

Well, part of the problem in telling the 'crazies' from the 'truly concerned's' is that much of the rhetoric being used is similar in nature to the actual doubts that some people have. My own post for example; if you took those same words and shouted them out in an open forum, how could anyone tell if it was rabble-rousing or genuine concern? And of course, that's what the agitators are banking on...



----------------
Listening to:
The Cummings String Trio - Bia 135 Op 8 Serenade in D for String Trio 6th mvmt - Thema con Variazioni: Andante quasi Allegretto - Variationen 1-4

[DavidW]

I agree on NPR they had an interview with one of the protesters and they did not sound like a planted shill, nor did they sound crazy.  Reform is a bold move, and it's a hard sell when it looks like it has the potential to weaken the economy even further.  I'm a supporter of it, but the opinion of either side should be respected.

[MishaK]

I agree on NPR they had an interview with one of the protesters and they did not sound like a planted shill, nor did they sound crazy.  Reform is a bold move, and it's a hard sell when it looks like it has the potential to weaken the economy even further.  I'm a supporter of it, but the opinion of either side should be respected.

Yes, but opinions are OK if they are based on the same set of facts. We can't let Rush & Co. distort things to the point that a serious proportion of the population believes in an alternate reality. They can have an opinion, but not a separate set of imaginary facts.

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, but opinions are OK if they are based on the same set of facts. We can't let Rush & Co. distort things to the point that a serious proportion of the population believes in an alternate reality. They can have an opinion, but not a separate set of imaginary facts.

True, but not everyone with concerns is a wild eyed, right-wing reactionary. Plenty of middle-of-the-road'ers and even Democrats have concerns too. We need a plan, not that will make everyone happy (effing impossible), but that will ease the immediate issues without raising insurmountable long-term issues. Frankly, I don't know if Congress is capable of devising such a plan. They are being driven by the extremists on both sides of the aisle.



----------------
Listening to:
The Cummings String Trio - Bia 153 Op 9#1 Trio in G for Strings 2nd mvmt - Adagio, ma non tanto e cantabile

[MishaK]

True, but not everyone with concerns is a wild eyed, right-wing reactionary. Plenty of middle-of-the-road'ers and even Democrats have concerns too. We need a plan, not that will make everyone happy (effing impossible), but that will ease the immediate issues without raising insurmountable long-term issues. Frankly, I don't know if Congress is capable of devising such a plan. They are being driven by the extremists on both sides of the aisle.

True enough, but the right wing 'concerns' raised at town hall meetings these days simply have no footing in reality. The whole BS about socialism and euthanasia is just insane. That is simply not a constructive debate, but a pharma-lobby organized and funded effort to kill the whole thing by appealing to people's fears, insecurities and dogmatic beliefs.

[Coopmv]

True enough, but the right wing 'concerns' raised at town hall meetings these days simply have no footing in reality. The whole BS about socialism and euthanasia is just insane. That is simply not a constructive debate, but a pharma-lobby organized and funded effort to kill the whole thing by appealing to people's fears, insecurities and dogmatic beliefs.

The Health Insurers Have Already Won

Read this article from an objective source.  How good can this healthcare reform be when the health insurers turn out to be big winners?  Who are paying for the 20MM illegals anyway?

[Gurn Blanston]

True enough, but the right wing 'concerns' raised at town hall meetings these days simply have no footing in reality. The whole BS about socialism and euthanasia is just insane. That is simply not a constructive debate, but a pharma-lobby organized and funded effort to kill the whole thing by appealing to people's fears, insecurities and dogmatic beliefs.

Yes, that and a few other things too, clearly fall in the rabble-rousing camp. I personally have no doubts in that regard. But things like funding are far less easy to dismiss. You can only lean so hard on 'let the rich folks pay for it' before that dog won't hunt. I don't think it is being unreasonable to have some concerns about that, and the talk of having to continue pushing back social security qualification in order to have time to get some money back in there after it has been gutted (like it already wasn't). I've been paying in to SS since 1963, and by the looks of it, I am never going to collect a dime. I had set up alternative pension plans, but the recent economic fiasco castrated those too. Do you think it is merely insecurity on part to come to the realization that I am likely never going to be able to retire in any sort of dignified fashion? So yes, I have genuine concerns about where the money is going to come from to pay for all this. Oh, and I have a pretty good grip on what medical costs are too. I was ill for the first time in my life last October. Needed emergency surgery, then a followup surgery in March of this year. 8 days in the hospital each time. Total billing for the 2: $185,000. I'd a looked good without insurance.





----------------
Listening to:
The Cummings String Trio - Bia 153 Op 9#2 Trio in D for Strings 1st mvmt - Allegretto

[MishaK]

The Health Insurers Have Already Won

Read this article from an objective source.  How good can this healthcare reform be when the health insurers turn out to be big winners?  Who are paying for the 20MM illegals anyway?

Yes, the sky is falling.   I knew it was just a matter of time 'til you showed up in this thread...

a) There is no such thing as an 'objective source'.

b) Premature death announcements are premature.

c) The proposal to provide *some* (though not the same) coverage for illegal immigrants has been off the table for a while now, AFAIK.

[Coopmv]

Yes, the sky is falling.   I knew it was just a matter of tim 'til you showed up in this thread...

a) There is no such thing as an 'objective source'.

b) Premature death announcements are premature.

c) The proposal to provide *some* (though not the same) coverage for illegal immigrants has been off the table for a while now, AFAIK.

Anyone who has half a brain should realize a healthcare reform bill that is written with the help of the insurance companies is questionable.  How can a reform bill that does not inflict major financial pains on the insurance companies be a success?  They are among the major culprits for the ever escalating medical costs.  Have you tried to buy health insurance coverage on your own? BTW, Tom Daschle, the Democrat who was the former Senate majority leader is a paid consultant to UnitedHealth.  You should have your economic IQ checked, as most left-wing ideologues are clueless when it comes to economic matters and healthcare reform is about economics.  Do you know what CDO and CDS are or what a derivative security is?  Unlike the US Chamber of Commerce, which is a mouthpiece for Corporate America, BusinessWeek is known for its objectivity and integrity.  It helped exposed wrongdoings at Enron before most people were even familiar with that company.  

[MishaK]

Anyone who has half a brain should realize a healthcare reform bill that is written with the help of the insurance companies is questionable.  How can a reform bill that does not inflict major financial pains on the insurance companies be a success?  They are among the major culprits for the ever escalating medical costs.  Have you tried to buy health insurance coverage on your own? BTW, Tom Daschle, the Democrat who was the former Senate majority leader is a paid consultant to UnitedHealth.

I am well aware of all this. But the article you cite presents the death of healthcare reform as a fait accompli when in reality things are still in flux, for better or worse. Personally, I think that some interests would like to present the healthcare battle as already lost so that the supporters on the left prematurely lose their will to fight for this; they want to present the battle as essentially futile so that we all complacently sit down and don't pester our senators and congresspeople to absolutely include the public option or else!

You should have your economic IQ checked, as most left-wing ideologues are clueless when it comes to economic matters and healthcare reform is about economics.  Do you know what CDO and CDS are or what a derivative security is?  

OK, where the f%^k did this come from and why did you think that was necessary?

Unlike the US Chamber of Commerce, which is a mouthpiece for Corporate America, BusinessWeek is known for its objectivity and integrity.  It helped exposed wrongdoings at Enron before most people were even familiar with that company.  

Business Week, like all other major publications, is beholden to the interests of its advertisers from which it derives the overwhelming majority of its revenues. BTW, the first to investigate Enron's shady dealings was a reporter at Fortune, not BW.

[Franco]

Things I don't like about the health care debate

1. referring to people who are opposed to Obamacare (a majority of the country) as "extremists", "racists", "wackos", "part of the vast rightwing conspiracy" etc.  Nancy Pelosi said that the behavior of those opposed to the health care reform is "un-American", my sense is the Left is resorting to smear tactics instead of dealing with the legitimate concerns of the opposition.

2. drumming up the idea of a health care "crisis" in order to rush the legislation through Congress without due diligence. 

3. disingenious claims that the "public option" poses no threat to the private health care options.  Obama yesterday cited the example of the Post Office as proof that we have nothing to worry about. 

4. with 68% of American voters have health-insurance coverage they rate good or excellent, adding trillions more to the public debt burden in order to have "universal care" (which will still leave 30k people without coverage, and will most likely lead to fewer options for patients and more rationing of care) is not what I wish my government to be doing. 

[MishaK]

Things I don't like about the health care debate

1. referring to people who are opposed to Obamacare (a majority of the country) as "extremists", "racists", "wackos", "part of the vast rightwing conspiracy" etc.  Nancy Pelosi said that the behavior of those opposed to the health care reform is "un-American", my sense is the Left is resorting to smear tactics instead of dealing with the legitimate concerns of the opposition.

Your assertions are wrong. The majority of the country has consistently been in favor of universal coverage and a public option. It is indeed un-American (or at least un-democratic, lower case d) to yell and threaten congresspeople publicly when the whole opposition is based on bogus fears of 'death panels' and rationing of toilet paper and socialism. That is so outside of the realm of reality generally and the terms of Obama's proposal specifically that there really is no polite way of responding to that. The claims are plain loony. We can argue about the actual proposal. But these guys are shooting down imaginary communist straw men.

2. drumming up the idea of a health care "crisis" in order to rush the legislation through Congress without due diligence.  

Nobody is drumming up any crisis. Tens of millions uninsured has been the status quo for years and rising health care costs that put families into bankruptcy have been a fact for years as well and cost are only expected to go up further. There has been an urgency to act for years, if not decades, on both financial and simple moral grounds. You must be in exceptionally good health indeed and completely oblivious to the plights of others that this needs to be explained to you. BTW, we've been talking about Obama's health care proposal at least since the election and we have time until after the summer recess to inspect it even more, so it is disingenuous to talk about anything being 'rushed' without 'due diligence'.

3. disingenious claims that the "public option" poses no threat to the private health care options.  Obama yesterday cited the example of the Post Office as proof that we have nothing to worry about.  

What specifically do you think is the risk? I come from a country that has exactly that: universal single-payer health care that any individual is free to opt out of and buy private insurance. No private insurer has gone bankrupt because of that in Germany. You can look all over Europe and you will see that even in systems with far more generous public options than anything that is on the table in the US right now, the existence of the public option does not in the least threaten any alternative private options. What is disingenuous are the claims by the health insurance industry that this will somehow put them out of business. It is nonsense designed to stir fears among the population that Obama is somehow going to take anything away from them. It is utter and complete nonsense not grounded in any reality. This is nothing but health insurance shenanigans distributed over the airwaves and the press by their paid shills to instill fear in the population so that Obama's plan fails, since it would cut into their profit margins. They are actually probably far more concerned about the mandate to insure everyone regardless of preexisting conditions or health history. But they can't publicly attack that since that would make them look like the bad guys they are.

4. with 68% of American voters have health-insurance coverage they rate good or excellent, adding trillions more to the public debt burden in order to have "universal care" (which will still leave 30k people without coverage, and will most likely lead to fewer options for patients and more rationing of care) is not what I wish my government to be doing.  

Yes, Rasmussen and WSJ, paragons of objectivity!  

[Coopmv]

OK, where the f%^k did this come from and why did you think that was necessary?

I just want to make the point that most diehard liberals are clueless when it comes to economic matters.  The desire to have this healthcare reform is mainly economic. I noticed that you have conveniently skipped all economic discussions.

[Bulldog]

 

I just want to make the point that most diehard liberals are clueless when it comes to economic matters.  The desire to have this healthcare reform is mainly economic.

No it isn't.  The economic considerations are certainly important, but the basic desire for reform is to allow every American to have a decent insurance plan and access to medical care.

[MishaK]

I just want to make the point that most diehard liberals are clueless when it comes to economic matters.

Then address your complaints to those people who you think are clueless.

The desire to have this healthcare reform is mainly economic. I noticed that you have conveniently skipped all economic discussions.

You did not discuss any economics. What did I supposedly skip?

[Coopmv]

Things I don't like about the health care debate

1. referring to people who are opposed to Obamacare (a majority of the country) as "extremists", "racists", "wackos", "part of the vast rightwing conspiracy" etc.  Nancy Pelosi said that the behavior of those opposed to the health care reform is "un-American", my sense is the Left is resorting to smear tactics instead of dealing with the legitimate concerns of the opposition.

2. drumming up the idea of a health care "crisis" in order to rush the legislation through Congress without due diligence. 

3. disingenious claims that the "public option" poses no threat to the private health care options.  Obama yesterday cited the example of the Post Office as proof that we have nothing to worry about. 

4. with 68% of American voters have health-insurance coverage they rate good or excellent, adding trillions more to the public debt burden in order to have "universal care" (which will still leave 30k people without coverage, and will most likely lead to fewer options for patients and more rationing of care) is not what I wish my government to be doing. 

Franco,  You have made some very cogent arguments.  I have no doubt O Mensch will call you a right-wing radical since he does not understand economics as evidenced by his skipping the financial issues I raised two posts ago.  He somehow thinks Fortune does not receive any corporate money.