5 Worst Composers Ever!!

[karlhenning]

I don't care for his music. My point was, something that is now seen as cloying and simplistic by many was once wild and incoherent. Truth is relative. 

Artistic truth, anyway  0:)

(I dig Tchaikovsky's wild side!)

[Dana]

X's Piano Concerto is broken, incoherent, and in at least a dozen instances the entry of the piano is an impertinent intrusion permitted by the composer because the pianist had to be given something to do. Here is X, a most 'advanced' musician, caring nothing for the rules and forms that served his musical forebears; and he wrote a concerto in his earlier days, and instead of withdrawing altogether in later life, he revised it! The themes are without exception orchestral themes; not one has been thought in the piano idiom. They are simply faked, by means of scales and arpeggios, to suit the piano.

I concur. **Ducks!**

[monafam]

I would like to revive this little thread with a funny passage I found yesterday. Anyone dissing Schoenberg, Webern et. al. should take note.

X's Piano Concerto is broken, incoherent, and in at least a dozen instances the entry of the piano is an impertinent intrusion permitted by the composer because the pianist had to be given something to do. Here is X, a most 'advanced' musician, caring nothing for the rules and forms that served his musical forebears; and he wrote a concerto in his earlier days, and instead of withdrawing altogether in later life, he revised it! The themes are without exception orchestral themes; not one has been thought in the piano idiom. They are simply faked, by means of scales and arpeggios, to suit the piano.

Who is X? Tchaikovsky.

I know there was at least one "concur" to this point.  Is this something that people can hear when they listen to the concerto in question?   The analysis part is where I struggle with the most, and I don't know I'd be able to hear soemthing and think "ah..that's an orchestral them that composer is trying to fake on the piano."   Unless someone wrote it for a different piece of music and arranged it later, I don't know that I would ever be able to hear those differences....

Possible exception -- there is a Hovhaness work for guitar where it felt to me like he had never heard what a guitar is capable of....he did better on a guitar concerto so I cut him some slack.

[Dana]

      I suspect that it's probably more obvious to the performer than to the audience - the people who've been playing their instruments for 20+ years, and instinctively tell how quick and easy something is to learn - how it "lays" under their fingers, so to speak. Tchaikovsky parts are always tough to play, because he establishes his sound world within his mind, and then tries to squeeze it into the forces he has arrayed before him, which results in awkward leaps and fingerings on the viola. The same is true of Brahms chamber music - as much as I enjoy listening to him, his viola parts are absolutely terrible to play - no composer wrote more awkward double-stops and string crossings than Brahms did. By contrast, Dvorak's chamber music is pretty easy to work out. But then he was a violist, whereas Brahms conceived most of his music at the piano and, like Tchaikovsky, had to work out how to fit it into whatever ensemble he had before him - hence the confusion regarding the inception of the 1st piano concerto.

      Corey didn't say who that quote was from, but I think it might be Rubinstein, or one of the other Five - that sounds like the kind of criticism that I've read from them concerning Tchaikovsky.

[monafam]

Thanks Dana!  That was a really helpful explanation.  I may not be able to just listen and point it out, but a deeper understanding of the capabilities of the instruments or the scores themselves, might make a little easier to grasp.

I am not sure if it was on this forum, but I recall a discussion once on a composer's primary instrument(s) background and how he wrote for other instruments that he might have been less familiar with.  All interesting stuff to me.

[karlhenning]

One doesn't like what one doesn't like, so I shan't beat anyone up over lack of enthusiasm for the Tch. First Cto . . . just for the record, I compose and analyze music all the time, and I have no quarrel with the piece  0:)     

[ChamberNut]

Tchaikovsky rules! For me anyways. 

[DavidW]

Mahler said that Tchaikovsky was too Italian.

[ChamberNut]

And Stavinsky said that Tchaikovsky was the most Russian of them all! 

[DavidW]

And Stavinsky said that Tchaikovsky was the most Russian of them all! 

Considering all the travel he did abroad I can't help but wonder if it's a good thing or a bad thing?

[karlhenning]

One doesn't like what one doesn't like, so I shan't beat anyone up over lack of enthusiasm for the Tch. First Cto . . . just for the record, I compose and analyze music all the time, and I have no quarrel with the piece  0:)     

Also — although, as stated, the Tch. First Cto is irreproachably oojah-cum-spiff — I respect an artistic questioning even of established repertory.

[not edward]

Also — although, as stated, the Tch. First Cto is irreproachably oojah-cum-spiff — I respect an artistic questioning even of established repertory.

I really dislike the work, as it happens, though I suspect this is at least in part due to enduring too many mediocre run-throughs of it with the RSNO and whichever terminally bored soloist was sleepwalking his/her way through it for a concert fee.

The Second, on the other hand--I've heard all the arguments about the inferior melodic material and the longeurs of the (as far as I'm concerned) beautiful second movement, and I'm not buying it. Great piece, as far as I'm concerned, and one that should show up far more often in the concert repertoire.

[karlhenning]

And I entirely sympathize with the Clockwork Orange effect  0:)

[greg]

      The same is true of Brahms chamber music - as much as I enjoy listening to him, his viola parts are absolutely terrible to play - no composer wrote more awkward double-stops and string crossings than Brahms did.

I've heard of this and seen examples that look impossibly awkward enough to make me wonder how they're even possible to play.
Then there's Schoenberg, whose piano pieces are supposedly awkward (though i can't think of a specific example), and there's supposed to be a couple of places where he's written harp parts with chords that are technically impossible to play.

But, hey, that's not a bad thing. If you write music for an instrument that's a bit awkward, you can remember Schoenberg and Brahms and feel less bad about yourself.  

[karlhenning]

The Second, on the other hand--I've heard all the arguments about the inferior melodic material and the longeurs of the (as far as I'm concerned) beautiful second movement, and I'm not buying it. Great piece, as far as I'm concerned, and one that should show up far more often in the concert repertoire.

I need to make the better acquaintance of that one; very much enjoyed an initial listen!

[Grazioso]

Worst ever? I love to explore classical music off the beaten path, and I've been very pleasantly surprised at what a great percentage of it has been rewarding and enjoyable (reading reviews and getting input from GMGer's has certainly helped stack the odds), but I've stumbled across a few duds. Jon Leifs is one. Despite repeated tries, I still haven't been able to finish his Saga Symphony, for example, with its utterly banal and monotonous noise

[Brian]

X's Piano Concerto is broken, incoherent, and in at least a dozen instances the entry of the piano is an impertinent intrusion permitted by the composer because the pianist had to be given something to do. Here is X, a most 'advanced' musician, caring nothing for the rules and forms that served his musical forebears; and he wrote a concerto in his earlier days, and instead of withdrawing altogether in later life, he revised it! The themes are without exception orchestral themes; not one has been thought in the piano idiom. They are simply faked, by means of scales and arpeggios, to suit the piano.

This is an absolutely false description of Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto ......................... Number Two.

[karlhenning]

Oh, I'm feeling the love . . . .

[Franco]

I just want to register my distaste for this thread, as well as, any "worst of" threads.

[karlhenning]

I just want to register my distaste for this thread, as well as, any "worst of" threads.

(* pounds the table *)