5 Worst Composers Ever!!

[jowcol]

Indeed, at least they produced works that articulated anti- semitism.One may, but I was referring solely to his musical works

As far as Dickens goes-- I'd suggest that one read Our Mutual Friend, written later in Dickens' career, to see if he was articulating antisemitism-- he deliberately created a character that was the antithesis of Fagan from Oliver Twist, and in his correspondence had voiced regret about his earlier characterization of Fagan.

Mussorgsky's characterization of the two Jews in Pictures at an Exhibition was based on a drawing by Victor Hartmann (to whom the work was dedicated.)  In his letters, he seemed fascinated by Jewish culture-- given the culture he lived in, this affectation may have been  for the "exotic", or somewhat condescending, but I've never seen anything in his written record to indicate antisemitism.

[Florestan]

As far as Dickens goes-- I'd suggest that one read Our Mutual Friend, written later in Dickens' career, to see if he was articulating antisemitism-- he deliberately created a character that was the antithesis of Fagan from Oliver Twist, and in his correspondence had voiced regret about his earlier characterization of Fagan.

Mussorgsky's characterization of the two Jews in Pictures at an Exhibition was based on a drawing by Victor Hartmann (to whom the work was dedicated.)  In his letters, he seemed fascinated by Jewish culture-- given the culture he lived in, this affectation may have been  for the "exotic", or somewhat condescending, but I've never seen anything in his written record to indicate antisemitism.

As for Hasek, the few Jewish petty characters appearing in "Soldier Svejk's Adventures" are not even real caricatures, since the old Austrian Empire had plenty of them in stock, especially in Galitsia.

Now, if about these three artists can be said that "they articulated anti-semitism",  if expressing negative opinions about Jews in private letters or conversations, or poking fun at Jews, or even caricaturing or stereotyping them is labelled the same as actively campaigning and working for their discrimination, deportation and extermination, namely "anti-semitism" --- then this term has lost any meaning.

[Cato]

Ah, the always good ol' appeal to authority. Absent Mr. Mann himself, could you please explain how an artist can express the widest range of human feelings in his work yet not experience them himself? Could you give us an example of a great artist detached from human feelings?

Florestan is right to be cautious about Thomas Mann, whose use of irony may lead to unusual assumptions, i.e. that a composer must - metaphorically at least - sell his soul to demonic forces to create something that does not sound like Rimsky-Korsakov (rf. Doctor Faustus).

Arnold Schoenberg begged to differ about that!

The most emotionally detached people in evidence in a human population would be either sociopaths or autistics.

  Gesualdo executed his wife's lover, and his wife, and possibly others, but he was hardly detached from human feelings: he seemed to feel too much!  And in his later years he certainly felt immense guilt!

The true sociopath does not feel anything, and his crimes come from a desire to evoke feelings.

[karlhenning]

As for Hasek, the few Jewish petty characters appearing in "Soldier Svejk's Adventures" are not even real caricatures, since the old Austrian Empire had plenty of them in stock, especially in Galitsia.

Now, if about these three artists can be said that "they articulated anti-semitism",  if expressing negative opinions about Jews in private letters or conversations, or poking fun at Jews, or even caricaturing or stereotyping them is labelled the same as actively campaigning and working for their discrimination, deportation and extermination, namely "anti-semitism" --- then this term has lost any meaning.

QFT.

[Florestan]

Besides, I don't understand why anti-semitism is linked with racism. Most Jews in Europe and US are indistinguishable from Indo-Europeans.

[Brian]

As for Hasek, the few Jewish petty characters appearing in "Soldier Svejk's Adventures" are not even real caricatures, since the old Austrian Empire had plenty of them in stock, especially in Galitsia.

I would go on to point out that every character in Svejk, or at least every character but one or two, is incompetent, silly, or insane, and that in a novel where generals are obsessed with getting their troops to go to the toilet simultaneously, priests are in the church for the money, the secret police gets devoured by hounds, and Lt. Dub generally storms around getting angry over matters of form, the Jews are hardly worse off or singled out for criticism in any meaningful way.

[Florestan]

I would go on to point out that every character in Svejk, or at least every character but one or two, is incompetent, silly, or insane, and that in a novel where generals are obsessed with getting their troops to go to the toilet simultaneously, priests are in the church for the money, the secret police gets devoured by hounds, and Lt. Dub generally storms around getting angry over matters of form, the Jews are hardly worse off or singled out for criticism in any meaningful way.

Well said.

[abidoful]

it is impossible for me to believe anybody with so much beauty within himself could possibly be a real villain.

The scriptures;
Psalm 14:3 (my own translation)
ALL (!) HAVE ABANDODED HIM-
THEY ARE ALL INVALID/ GOOD-FOR NOTHING!
THERE'S NO ONE, WHO DOES GOOD,
NOT SINGLE ONE

So in essence we all are villains- and our only way out is Lord Jesus Christ ! ! ! ! ! !

[Brahmsian]

LOL!   

I remember this thread, and some heated discussions with DavidW.  An example of when I've been confrontational, but DavidW and I are friends. 

[Lethevich]

Messiaen's orchestral music is still terrible

[Brahmsian]

For some reason (don't ask me why I thought so), I thought Karl had started this thread in jest!!   

I now see, and remember, that it was good 'ole Snyppps! 

[Karl Henning]

Aye, snypsss can be quite the pot-stirrer ; )

[snyprrr]

LOL!   

I remember this thread, and some heated discussions with DavidW.  An example of when I've been confrontational, but DavidW and I are friends. 

Yes, coffee on computer screen funny!!

Messiaen's orchestral music is still terrible

NOOOOOOO!!!!

Aye, snypsss can be quite the pot-stirrer ; )

Oh, you love it!

"Spohr, Glazunov, & Hummel walk into a bar..."

[dyn]

i don't have a "5 worst composers". when i don't like something, i stop listening to it. it would be kind of silly to keep on listening to the music of composers that don't appeal to you.

that said, Richard Wagner has possibly the lowest quality-to-reputation ratio of any composer ever ; )

[Brahmsian]

i don't have a "5 worst composers". when i don't like something, i stop listening to it. it would be kind of silly to keep on listening to the music of composers that don't appeal to you.

that said, Richard Wagner has possibly the lowest quality-to-reputation ratio of any composer ever ; )

I will say that there are many who would hold this very same opinion.   

However, I would not be one of them. 

[jut1972]

Florestan is right to be cautious about Thomas Mann, whose use of irony may lead to unusual assumptions, i.e. that a composer must - metaphorically at least - sell his soul to demonic forces to create something that does not sound like Rimsky-Korsakov (rf. Doctor Faustus).

Arnold Schoenberg begged to differ about that!

The most emotionally detached people in evidence in a human population would be either sociopaths or autistics.

  Gesualdo executed his wife's lover, and his wife, and possibly others, but he was hardly detached from human feelings: he seemed to feel too much!  And in his later years he certainly felt immense guilt!

The true sociopath does not feel anything, and his crimes come from a desire to evoke feelings.

Disagree with the autistic statement, many suffering from autism have the opposite problem, emotions overwhelm them and have to learn how to manage that interaction.  Not the same as detachment.

for me the stuff I find inpenetrable:
schoenberg
bartok
and just plan dull
bach
(of course I know he is a great composer, but if the intent is to stir emotion I find it tedious and twee).

[mszczuj]

t said, Richard Wagner has possibly the lowest quality-to-reputation ratio of any composer ever ; )

He prepared the narcotic of the greatest quality in the history of music and may be in the history of culture.

[Sergeant Rock]

for me the stuff I find inpenetrable:
schoenberg
bartok
and just plan dull
bach
(of course I know he is a great composer, but if the intent is to stir emotion I find it tedious and twee).

Richard Wagner has possibly the lowest quality-to-reputation ratio of any composer ever ; )

Wrong thread, guys. These posts belong in the Unpopular Opinion thread 

Sarge

[jlaurson]

Wrong thread, guys, These posts belong in the Unpopular Opinion thread 

Sarge

Such a fine line between being cheeky and plain ignorant, isn't it. :-)

[kishnevi]

Well, if one takes the thread title literally, we can be pretty sure that whoever the "Five worst composers ever" are, they long ago disappeared into well deserved obscurity.

Except perhaps Stockhausen