Bach's Greatest Works Part 2d Keyboard Works

[DavidW]

To me the toughest Bach to enjoy are the keyboard works.  Some are lovely, expressive of affectations or the embodiment of a style easier on the ears (English, French, Italian).  But at the core, many of his keyboard works are difficult for me because the voices (unlike orchestral, chamber and vocal works) all sound the same in timbre because they're coming from the same instrument.  It takes more effort to resolve them and hear the counterpoint.  And for me there is less pleasure in Bach's amazing harmony when played on one single instrument.  But his genius clearly shines here, and some of his greatest works are for for the keyboard.  

Is his keyboard music easy on your ears or difficult?  Do you find yourself consistently moved, or do you find it to be cerebral and abstract?  In what ways are Bach's keyboard works different from his contemporaries?  And in what ways are they the same?  Are they greater than the work of his contemporaries?

In particular, do you find bwv 1080 to be moving, or would you describe it more as intellectually stimulating?  If you are moved by it, was it spontaneous or the effort of lot of listening to "get it" or know it at first so you can relax and let your guard down?  How would you characterize Cothen (where he wrote many of his secular works) and Leipzig II styles?  How do they differ?  Can hear it in say the two books of the WTC?

It seems to me that this kind of music is exactly what classical music is all about-- difficult but great music that takes time to unfold.  But I realize that some are immediately floored by and I would certainly like to hear from you.

If I'm asking the wrong questions, ask your own.  Also I have a poll here, and please discuss it as well, just don't let it turn into a discussion of individual recordings please, we have many threads for that already.  Oh yeah and here is the list we came up, keep it in mind--

• BWV 772, Invention No. 1 in C major
• BWV 773, Invention No. 2 in C minor
• BWV 774, Invention No. 3 in D major
• BWV 775, Invention No. 4 in D minor
• BWV 776, Invention No. 5 in E flat major
• BWV 777, Invention No. 6 in E major
• BWV 778, Invention No. 7 in E minor
• BWV 779, Invention No. 8 in F major
• BWV 780, Invention No. 9 in F minor
• BWV 781, Invention No. 10 in G major
• BWV 782, Invention No. 11 in G minor
• BWV 783, Invention No. 12 in A major
• BWV 784, Invention No. 13 in A minor
• BWV 785, Invention No. 14 in B flat major
• BWV 786, Invention No. 15 in B minor
• BWV 810, English Suite No. 5 in E minor
• BWV 811, English Suite No. 6 in D minor
• BWV 813, French Suite No. 2 in C minor
• BWV 827, Partitas Clavierübung I, Partita No. 3 in A minor
• BWV 830, Partitas Clavierübung I, Partita No. 6 in E minor
• BWV 831, French Overture
• BWV 846, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 1 in C major
• BWV 847, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 2 in C minor
• BWV 848, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 3 in C sharp major
• BWV 849, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 4 in C sharp minor
• BWV 850, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 5 in D major
• BWV 851, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 6 in D minor
• BWV 852, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 7 in E flat major
• BWV 853, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 8 in E flat minor
• BWV 854, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 9 in E major
• BWV 855, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 10 in E minor
• BWV 856, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 11 in F major
• BWV 857, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 12 in F minor
• BWV 858, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 13 in F sharp major
• BWV 859, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 14 in F sharp minor
• BWV 860, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 15 in G major
• BWV 861, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 16 in G minor
• BWV 862, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 17 in A flat major
• BWV 863, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 18 in G sharp minor
• BWV 864, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 19 in A major
• BWV 865, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 20 in A minor
• BWV 866, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 21 in B flat major
• BWV 867, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 22 in B flat minor
• BWV 868, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 23 in B major
• BWV 869, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil I Prelude and Fugue No. 24 in B minor
• BWV 870, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 1 in C major
• BWV 871, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 2 in C minor
• BWV 872, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 3 in C sharp major
• BWV 873, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 4 in C sharp minor
• BWV 874, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 5 in D major
• BWV 875, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 6 in D minor
• BWV 876, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 7 in E flat major
• BWV 877, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 8 in E flat minor
• BWV 878, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 9 in E major
• BWV 879, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 10 in E minor
• BWV 880, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 11 in F major
• BWV 881, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 12 in F minor
• BWV 882, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 13 in F sharp major
• BWV 883, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 14 in F sharp minor
• BWV 884, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 15 in G major
• BWV 885, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 16 in G minor
• BWV 886, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 17 in A flat major
• BWV 887, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 18 in G sharp minor
• BWV 888, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 19 in A major
• BWV 889, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 20 in A minor
• BWV 890, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 21 in B flat major
• BWV 891, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 22 in B flat minor
• BWV 892, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 23 in B major
• BWV 893, Das Wohltemeprierte Clavier, Teil II Prelude and Fugue No. 24 in B minor
• BWV 903, Chromatic Fantasia & Fugue
• BWV 971, Italian Concerto
• BWV 988, Goldberg Variations
• BWV 992, Capriccio in B flat major
• BWV 1080, Die Kunst der Fuge

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

It seems to me that this kind of music is exactly what classical music is all about-- difficult but great music that takes time to unfold.  But I realize that some are immediately floored by and I would certainly like to hear from you.

JSB's keyboard works are a very topical issue for me, since they are taking up the lion's share of my current piano study. I've been concentrating on the Inventions, while making tentative excursions into the easier Goldberg Variations, the WTC, and a couple of movements from the Partitas.

I do find this music to be somewhat cerebral and abstract - but that's not an objection at all. In fact, I like it that way. The sense of order, logic, rigor and sobriety appeals to me. (Incidentally I have never much liked Romantic piano music, which often feels like the opposite of Baroque.)

I wouldn't say I've ever been immediately floored by a Bach keyboard piece. It takes time and patience to figure them out. That's part of the fun though.  0:)

[Franco]

IMO the argument on what keyboard is best for Bach, usually harpsichord vs. piano, is a microcosm of the entire HIP philosophy.  To wit: is it a more appropriate practice to recreate the performance environment, including limitations, that existed at the precise time the work was written and first performed?  

I don't agree that is it better or worse, and it can be very nice and amost always worthwhile - but to insist on only HIP performances?  No, I disagree.  

For me, the primary criteria is how the music sounds.  If it sounds good on piano, then to insist that it only be played on harpsichord because of historical accuracy is silly.  Music should not be subjected to this kind of academic treatment.  

And I disagree if someone were to compare playing Bach on piano to making a movie of a Shakespeare play.

If someone says it doesn't sound good on piano, that is a matter of taste, or they are imposing a limited idea of style on the music, e.g. Bach's keyboard music should not be played on piano because the dynamic range of the piano adds something to the music Bach did not intend, etc.

If there are things I am missing about this argument, please clue me in, because I just don't get why some people whip themselves into a rage over this issue.

[DavidW]

I do find this music to be somewhat cerebral and abstract - but that's not an objection at all. In fact, I like it that way. The sense of order, logic, rigor and sobriety appeals to me. (Incidentally I have never much liked Romantic piano music, which often feels like the opposite of Baroque.)

You know I think that more modern piano music like Ligeti, Bartok etc sound closer to baroque (or even classical) style than romantic in attitude.  Romantic era piano music just exists in it's own little world.  A kind of oddity.  I rarely find myself yearning for romantic piano music, but it happens now and then.

[DavidW]

Franco, I have not seen a HIPpie ever make that strawman argument you just put up.  Except for perhaps Rod, but he doesn't even like Bach!

The primary objection to playing Bach on the piano is that the piano is tuned for equal temperament and Bach preferred well temperament.  That has an impressive change in how one of those keyboard works sound.  You make it sound as if there's not much of a difference between the two, and people only turn to the harpsichord out of a stuffy sense of hearing authenticity.  Many people think that the harpsichord is a compelling instrument to hear Bach in due to the temperament, the lightness of the keys, the ability to easily use short phrasing (that stop on a dime quality) and the intimate sound.

I've never ever ever seen a HIPpie that wanted all modern recordings wiped from the face of the Earth, they simply want to hear it what it sounds like on the instruments they were composed for.  You read in an aggressive arrogance that is almost never demonstrated by HIPpies.  Bach can sound lovely on the piano and the harpsichord, I begrudge no one choosing one way or the other and neither should you.  I created the poll to attract attention to my sinking titanic Bach threads, but not to start another pointless HIP vs traditionalist debate.  That's not what this thread is about.

[Franco]

Well, I asked for someone to clue me in, admitting that I "don't get what the argument is about" - so thanks.

Interesting about Well as opposed to Equal temperament, I used to know the difference but have since forgotten.  I have not heard any recordings using well temperment, that I am aware of, so as to understand the difference.

Does the tuning effect organs too? 

Can you name a WTC recording using Well Temperment?

Also I am sorry to have sidetracked your thread.

[DavidW]

Oh no that's cool as long it's really about Bach I'm fine, and it's back to Bach now.  Equal temperament has a chord progression given by a geometric sequence.  That is consecutive chords are just a multiple of each other (and the same factor) so that A in one octave and A in the next are a factor of 2 apart in frequency.  That makes the factor between chords 2^(1/12) which is approximately 1.05946.

I don't know how well temperament works.  I can't remember.  The first I remembered from intro music because it's so neat.

I believe organs at that time also used well or unequal temperament.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

You know I think that more modern piano music like Ligeti, Bartok etc sound closer to baroque (or even classical) style than romantic in attitude. 

Absolutely, I've had that thought many times. My ideal keyboard recital would consist of a first half of Bach, Scarlatti, Froberger or the like, followed by Ligeti, Janacek, Carter etc. in the second half, skipping the Romantics entirely.

I think my beef with the Romantics is that they didn't treat the piano like the percussion instrument it really is. They tried to make it sing, and in the process came up with a lot of cloudy, foggy, misty stuff.